To think enough is enough, time to have a re-vote on brexit

[jdoe8]

I'm still having problems sleeping with brexit, sometimes I wake up in the middle of the night thinking it was just a nightmare. But its real and with each day it gets worse.

Now the banks are saying they will leave the UK, as we are 80% services and the banks are a very significant part of this it will be catastrophic for the UK economy.

Most of the people i know that voted to brexit now regret their decision so why not have another vote on it?

[smallfox2002]

"GE s have also had huge direct consequences on people's lives and no-one asks for a rerun if they do not like the outcome. "

We do get to re run them though, every 5 years at least.

The £4000 figure wasn't a "lie" it was the outcome of a set of sums done by the treasusry, it certainly wasn't as blatantly incorrect as the £350 million figure, which even when challenged on it being incorrect the leave campaigners still maintained it was true.

[LurkingHusband]

The £4000 figure wasn't a "lie" it was the outcome of a set of sums done by the treasusry, it certainly wasn't as blatantly incorrect as the £350 million figure, which even when challenged on it being incorrect the leave campaigners still maintained it was true

I posted yesterday that Microsoft are hiking prices. These will feed directly into two streams. (1) higher prices for consumers, and (2) less budget for employees in IT departments.

Already fuel is creeping up, along with some foodstuffs. Just £10/week extra is already £520 a year extra.

And that will be £520 that can't be spent elsewhere, with the remaining amount buying less to boot.

Who knew taking back control could feel so good ?

Drifting slightly away from Brexit issues, but staying with UK poverty, I was ashamed and horrified when I saw a comedian last week (Mark Thomas, so there was an agenda) and he mentioned a story where he was canvassing opinions about a town centre development. He stopped a older lady, and when he asked her what she thought her first reaction - with panic - was they won't close the pound shop will they ?

I wonder where she will find the extra cash to pay for Brexit ?

[larrygrylls]

'Larry, the same problems of block voting and representing the people can be said of MPs at Westminster. A Conservative MP voting with party policy at all times doesn't represent any Labour voters or Lib dems in his constituency.'

Yes, but even if the MEP I vote for does get in, he cannot represent my vote as he has got to vote in a vague anonymous block which I have no idea who controls. It is not the same thing. There is no such thing as perfect democracy but it does not mean that some systems are not more democratic than others.

'Outside of the EU the UK will still be effected by EU and EU parliament decisions, we won't have a voice in this process and therefore trying to justify a leave vote for the reasons you have listed frankly smacks of desperation.'

That is really bizarre. Clearly everyone is affected by major political decisions in all large countries. Probably the single most important decision made is the interest rate policy of the US federal reserve. I don't think anyone is suggesting that we need to join the US on that basis. The Russian gas policy has an enormous effect on many EU countries. Are you suggesting that they join the EU?

[smallfox2002]

No, but neither Russia nor the US have been part of the EU have they so that's a daft point to make, further neither Russia or the US have their economies so intertwined with the EU single market and will be as affected by decisions on regulations and laws of within the single market. So to make this comparison is fallacious.

The point on your democracy thing is still incorrect, in the UK parliament if your MP doesn't represent YOUR vote, he acts in the way he thinks best. If the MP represented the votes of the majority of their constituents and only the ones that voted for them, obviously not representing the vote of those who voted for someone else) we wouldn't have had so many Conservatives MPs that would vote to remain!

In fact, because the MEPs are elected by proportional representation you could say that they represent a broader cross section of the electorate than FPTP elected politicians.

What has the EU imposed that you object to and you think would have not happened under a UK government? I'd also ask if you think the cost of leaving, and the long term damage to the economy, is worth the minor changes to sovereignty?

[SallyMcgally]

The £4000 figure wasn't a "lie" it was the outcome of a set of sums done by the treasusry, it certainly wasn't as blatantly incorrect as the £350 million figure, which even when challenged on it being incorrect the leave campaigners still maintained it was true.

How do we know it was a lie at all? We can't know until we leave. I don't know why anyone would think it was unlikely. For anyone with children of university age, it's more than likely. My children are fortunate enough to have Irish passports and so will still be able to go to European universities which cost barely anything, and have been talking about going to Europe for that reason for some years. Most UK kids won't be in that position now, and if they want to go to university, will be forced to pay enormous fees. That alone would cost vastly more than £4000 a year. Job losses - rise in cost of living - fall in the value of the pound - all of that could add up very quickly indeed.

[Valentine2]

larry
The way you have described the apathy of general public towards MEPs is nearly exactly what my European friends call "little englander" mentality. There is an impression in Europe that Uk,being the local big brothers that we are (sarcasm,not serious), has far less interest in playing active role in the EU than they show generally. I don't think all of this impression is wrong if so many people don't know about that MEP.obviously it's not public's fault totally either. I can just about visualise what you are trying to explain. What I don't understand is why you go backwards from there on? For example, if a part of our country or the whole of Europe is disillusioned, why not try to bring them further in instead of breaking away? The world is forming large blocs to secure their future regionally and increase their productivity. such a blatant lack of planing on behalf of Leave campaign (four months gone; £ at 168 year low; banks moving; industries threatening to move despite promises of help from government; younger generation feeling disillusioned; shall I keep going on?) is absolutely disappointing and stunning frankly. We are going exactly in the opposite direction of where we should have been heading now: work on EU from inside to make it better. And we did have a big big say in things then. Now? Not so sure.

[CeciledeVolanges]

Also in general elections manifestos are produced, which politicians are then expected to act on and laws based on manifesto promises have special status.

[LurkingHusband]

Also in general elections manifestos are produced, which politicians are then expected to act on and laws based on manifesto promises have special status.

Such as a manifest promise that the UK would remain in the single market ? Page 74.

[fakenamefornow]

Maybe we need a referendum on whether we want FOM + Single Market or No FOM and No Single Market Access.

It seems to me that is a real choice we need to make although I suspect certain politicians would be full of hot air about how we can end FOM AND keep single market access.

[LurkingHusband]

Maybe we need a referendum

Arggg !!!!

on whether we want FOM + Single Market or No FOM and No Single Market Access

but why ? It's already clear that the squeakiest wheels are clamouring for "No FOM and Single Market Access". And what's more their "reasoning" seems to be:

1. We're British goddamnit;
   
2. You're not British, and need to understand that's why you need to do as you are told
   
3. We think you'll miss us
   
4. You're missing us already.
   
   In various proportions.
   
   The problem is few Leave supporters - certainly on these forums - have the faintest idea why Freedom Of Movement is central to the European vision. Which is ironic, given their misty-eyed shibboleth of "the war". It was "the war" which forged the principle of Freedom Of Movement.
   
   One of the most passionate pro-EU person I ever met was in his 70s when Maastricht was news. He was a motorbike courier in the army, and captured at Dunkirk, and spent 5 years as a POW until he marched from Poland to France, just ahead of the Red Army. Even 50 years later, he was moist eyed as he described village after village with no walls standing. His words were I don't care what it takes to never see that again.
   
   Ironically, in a time of rising nationalism and political extremes, we are losing sight of the crucible which forged post war "Europe".