To think enough is enough, time to have a re-vote on brexit

[jdoe8]

I'm still having problems sleeping with brexit, sometimes I wake up in the middle of the night thinking it was just a nightmare. But its real and with each day it gets worse.

Now the banks are saying they will leave the UK, as we are 80% services and the banks are a very significant part of this it will be catastrophic for the UK economy.

Most of the people i know that voted to brexit now regret their decision so why not have another vote on it?

[LurkingHusband]

Maybe we need a referendum

Arggg !!!!

on whether we want FOM + Single Market or No FOM and No Single Market Access

but why ? It's already clear that the squeakiest wheels are clamouring for "No FOM and Single Market Access". And what's more their "reasoning" seems to be:

1. We're British goddamnit;
   
2. You're not British, and need to understand that's why you need to do as you are told
   
3. We think you'll miss us
   
4. You're missing us already.
   
   In various proportions.
   
   The problem is few Leave supporters - certainly on these forums - have the faintest idea why Freedom Of Movement is central to the European vision. Which is ironic, given their misty-eyed shibboleth of "the war". It was "the war" which forged the principle of Freedom Of Movement.
   
   One of the most passionate pro-EU person I ever met was in his 70s when Maastricht was news. He was a motorbike courier in the army, and captured at Dunkirk, and spent 5 years as a POW until he marched from Poland to France, just ahead of the Red Army. Even 50 years later, he was moist eyed as he described village after village with no walls standing. His words were I don't care what it takes to never see that again.
   
   Ironically, in a time of rising nationalism and political extremes, we are losing sight of the crucible which forged post war "Europe".

[fakenamefornow]

Maybe we need a referendum on whether we want FOM + Single Market or No FOM and No Single Market Access.

It seems to me that is a real choice we need to make although I suspect certain politicians would be full of hot air about how we can end FOM AND keep single market access.

[LurkingHusband]

Also in general elections manifestos are produced, which politicians are then expected to act on and laws based on manifesto promises have special status.

Such as a manifest promise that the UK would remain in the single market ? Page 74.

[CeciledeVolanges]

Also in general elections manifestos are produced, which politicians are then expected to act on and laws based on manifesto promises have special status.

[Valentine2]

larry
The way you have described the apathy of general public towards MEPs is nearly exactly what my European friends call "little englander" mentality. There is an impression in Europe that Uk,being the local big brothers that we are (sarcasm,not serious), has far less interest in playing active role in the EU than they show generally. I don't think all of this impression is wrong if so many people don't know about that MEP.obviously it's not public's fault totally either. I can just about visualise what you are trying to explain. What I don't understand is why you go backwards from there on? For example, if a part of our country or the whole of Europe is disillusioned, why not try to bring them further in instead of breaking away? The world is forming large blocs to secure their future regionally and increase their productivity. such a blatant lack of planing on behalf of Leave campaign (four months gone; £ at 168 year low; banks moving; industries threatening to move despite promises of help from government; younger generation feeling disillusioned; shall I keep going on?) is absolutely disappointing and stunning frankly. We are going exactly in the opposite direction of where we should have been heading now: work on EU from inside to make it better. And we did have a big big say in things then. Now? Not so sure.

[SallyMcgally]

The £4000 figure wasn't a "lie" it was the outcome of a set of sums done by the treasusry, it certainly wasn't as blatantly incorrect as the £350 million figure, which even when challenged on it being incorrect the leave campaigners still maintained it was true.

How do we know it was a lie at all? We can't know until we leave. I don't know why anyone would think it was unlikely. For anyone with children of university age, it's more than likely. My children are fortunate enough to have Irish passports and so will still be able to go to European universities which cost barely anything, and have been talking about going to Europe for that reason for some years. Most UK kids won't be in that position now, and if they want to go to university, will be forced to pay enormous fees. That alone would cost vastly more than £4000 a year. Job losses - rise in cost of living - fall in the value of the pound - all of that could add up very quickly indeed.

[smallfox2002]

No, but neither Russia nor the US have been part of the EU have they so that's a daft point to make, further neither Russia or the US have their economies so intertwined with the EU single market and will be as affected by decisions on regulations and laws of within the single market. So to make this comparison is fallacious.

The point on your democracy thing is still incorrect, in the UK parliament if your MP doesn't represent YOUR vote, he acts in the way he thinks best. If the MP represented the votes of the majority of their constituents and only the ones that voted for them, obviously not representing the vote of those who voted for someone else) we wouldn't have had so many Conservatives MPs that would vote to remain!

In fact, because the MEPs are elected by proportional representation you could say that they represent a broader cross section of the electorate than FPTP elected politicians.

What has the EU imposed that you object to and you think would have not happened under a UK government? I'd also ask if you think the cost of leaving, and the long term damage to the economy, is worth the minor changes to sovereignty?

[larrygrylls]

'Larry, the same problems of block voting and representing the people can be said of MPs at Westminster. A Conservative MP voting with party policy at all times doesn't represent any Labour voters or Lib dems in his constituency.'

Yes, but even if the MEP I vote for does get in, he cannot represent my vote as he has got to vote in a vague anonymous block which I have no idea who controls. It is not the same thing. There is no such thing as perfect democracy but it does not mean that some systems are not more democratic than others.

'Outside of the EU the UK will still be effected by EU and EU parliament decisions, we won't have a voice in this process and therefore trying to justify a leave vote for the reasons you have listed frankly smacks of desperation.'

That is really bizarre. Clearly everyone is affected by major political decisions in all large countries. Probably the single most important decision made is the interest rate policy of the US federal reserve. I don't think anyone is suggesting that we need to join the US on that basis. The Russian gas policy has an enormous effect on many EU countries. Are you suggesting that they join the EU?

[LurkingHusband]

The £4000 figure wasn't a "lie" it was the outcome of a set of sums done by the treasusry, it certainly wasn't as blatantly incorrect as the £350 million figure, which even when challenged on it being incorrect the leave campaigners still maintained it was true

I posted yesterday that Microsoft are hiking prices. These will feed directly into two streams. (1) higher prices for consumers, and (2) less budget for employees in IT departments.

Already fuel is creeping up, along with some foodstuffs. Just £10/week extra is already £520 a year extra.

And that will be £520 that can't be spent elsewhere, with the remaining amount buying less to boot.

Who knew taking back control could feel so good ?

Drifting slightly away from Brexit issues, but staying with UK poverty, I was ashamed and horrified when I saw a comedian last week (Mark Thomas, so there was an agenda) and he mentioned a story where he was canvassing opinions about a town centre development. He stopped a older lady, and when he asked her what she thought her first reaction - with panic - was they won't close the pound shop will they ?

I wonder where she will find the extra cash to pay for Brexit ?

[GraceGrape]

But General Elections are re-run every five years. Even if there were other referenda, for example on capital punishment, the decision could be reversed by future legislation. With this referendum, the action taken now is pretty irreversible. Once we leave, we leave. Even if it goes tits up and we apply to rejoin in twenty years, we will never have the favourable arrangement that currently exists.

[smallfox2002]

"GE s have also had huge direct consequences on people's lives and no-one asks for a rerun if they do not like the outcome. "

We do get to re run them though, every 5 years at least.

The £4000 figure wasn't a "lie" it was the outcome of a set of sums done by the treasusry, it certainly wasn't as blatantly incorrect as the £350 million figure, which even when challenged on it being incorrect the leave campaigners still maintained it was true.

[smallfox2002]

Larry, the same problems of block voting and representing the people can be said of MPs at Westminster. A Conservative MP voting with party policy at all times doesn't represent any Labour voters or Lib dems in his constituency.

MEPs serve a useful role in debating EU wide issues, and highlighting their own constituents interests, and can suggest ammendments to legislation. It was hilarious that Farage felt the need to champion the cause of the fishing industry having been on the committee for the CAF and not turned up for years.

Outside of the EU the UK will still be effected by EU and EU parliament decisions, we won't have a voice in this process and therefore trying to justify a leave vote for the reasons you have listed frankly smacks of desperation.

[lightupowl]

OP I am also having sleepless nights over Brexit. It will affect our family in a very direct and negative way.

I feel cheated by the referendum campaign/outcome in a way that I never have after a disappointing general election result. With a GE, I have always been able to accept the result, whatever it was and whatever the consequences for me personally.

This time it feels different. I cannot accept this outcome for our country on the basis of such campaign. Even before the vote itself, the process felt corrupt and clumsily handled. Arguments from both sides misrepresented, over emotional and misunderstood. Our futures gambled for various political careers. There was no plan, just arrogance that remain would win.

Would a second referendum be conducted in a better way? Probably not. I no longer think that this is the answer, especially as a remain vote would make leavers feel equally cheated. Parliament absolutely has a duty to sort this mess out, though. We pay them to deal with complicated problems and accept flak to do the right thing. In my view this would mean insisting that A50 is put to the vote before it is invoked. It would be devastating if parliament voted to invoke A50 but this I could accept.

[larrygrylls]

Fake,

May I ask what about and why you chose your MEP over your MP?

[fakenamefornow]

Can anyone point me to someone writing to their MEP and getting a positive result?

I've written to one of my MEPs and got a positive result. I have also written to my MP but never my local councillor, in fact I don't know who my local councillor is

[frumpet]

Larry , the only thing I shall be googling today is why my washing machine is making a funny noise on the spin cycle and what part I need to order to fix it !

I do not know what block the MEP sits with in Brussels or indeed how that block votes , all I can honestly say is nothing that has come out of Brussels so far has had a detrimental effect on my life as far as I can tell , although if any of the votes were about hiding your blimmin letter box , I shall of course have to detract that statement .

[larrygrylls]

Frumpet,

Come on! The vast majority of the electorate is apathetic, even about matters which affect them daily. The exact nature of the democratic structure is far too obscure for them to demonstrate about.

If you know what block your MEP sits with in Brussels and how that block votes, I would be intensely surprised! I am politically interested and clued up but I don't have a clue. (Clearly you are going to do a quick google and say that you made it your business to know this even before voting).

The EU does not really attempt to justify itself to its electorate. I don't remember the campaign for the European parliament. I certainly don't remember anyone knocking on my door or any leaflets coming through explaining policies etc.

[frumpet]

Is it that people do not feel a connection with their MEP because they haven't actually voted for one , I always vote , it was drummed into me at an early age that if you have a vote you should always use it , so I have dutifully turned up and voted in every MEP election this area has had , sometimes the one I voted for got in ! the turnout for these elections though is generally pretty poor when you compare them to other elections , which is suprising when you consider how the EU has allegedly become this all powerful behemoth of anti-democratic shenanagins , people would have been out in force surely, if they felt so strongly about it ?

I know where my MEP lives and what he is called , I know what his wife looks like and what car she drives and where the post box is hidden on his house ! No I am not a stalker

[larrygrylls]

Frumpet,

The more diluted democracy is, the less effective. People still feel that they have a connection with their MP, not their MEP. There are many stories in newspapers and on mn where local MPs have become involved and sorted out individual's issues. Can anyone point me to someone writing to their MEP and getting a positive result?

In the European Parliament our parties are allied in big broad voting blocks, further diluting the electorate's will.

It is ironic to devolve power to the regions simultaneous with concentrating it in Brussels.

[frumpet]

Parliament !

[frumpet]

Autumn media coverage has nothing to do with the EU though , it is to do with , well the media . A section of which have been demonising the EU for years with half truths .

I do not understand your 'free' remarks at all , that is not to say I am saying the way you are feeling is 'wrong' , your feelings are your feelings . I just do not understand how being a member of the EU has actually made you in any way less 'free' ?

If you are entitled to vote and have registered to vote , then you get a vote . You do not get to vote on every tiny little thing that goes through parliment , either the UK or EU one , you vote for a MP or MEP and put your trust in them to do whatever they believe is best for the UK , you will probably disagree with some of things they do , infact if your MP/MEP isn't one you voted for you may disagree with everything they do , but that is how it works and will continue to work if we leave the EU . So I struggle to understand your sense of being 'free' . Feel free to disagree

[Bananagio]

My children will be free! It means much to me that my childrens vote will mean something in future and please no one trot out the old usual crap. Our system is not perfect, no system is - look at the US !!

. Genuinely don't understand what you are talking about Autumn
What significant part of government policy has meant you didn't feel "free" or that your vote mattered as a direct result of Brussels?

[Valentine2]

sally
They will just go on to shrug their shoulders and say "we really did give it our best! But the businesses were so damn lazy that Brexit didn't work. How in the world is that our fault?"

[SallyMcgally]

But aren't Liam Fox and David David the ones promising us a great and glorious future once we unshackle ourselves from EU? How's that going to happen if our business people are so lazy according to them?