To think enough is enough, time to have a re-vote on brexit

[jdoe8]

I'm still having problems sleeping with brexit, sometimes I wake up in the middle of the night thinking it was just a nightmare. But its real and with each day it gets worse.

Now the banks are saying they will leave the UK, as we are 80% services and the banks are a very significant part of this it will be catastrophic for the UK economy.

Most of the people i know that voted to brexit now regret their decision so why not have another vote on it?

I haven't read the whole thread but here are my thoughts for what they're worth:

1. We should never have had a referendum on this issue - it was far too complicated for the majority of the population to understand. The fact that many people are surprised you can't simply press some sort of "unsubscribe to the EU" button and be done with it shows the extent of misunderstanding about the degree to which we are, like it or not, entwined with the EU.

1. The referendum campaign was terrible. Too many lies by some and too much complacency by others.

1. Like it or not, "the people" voted to leave the EU. That wish cannot be ignored.

1. Democracy is a process. One vote doesn't stop the clock on the matter. If that were the case we would never update/change anything. The debate must be allowed to continue and simply trying to shut down the arguments of those who do not agree with the approach to Brexit is not acceptable. Everyone is entitled to a view on the form Brexit should take: to criticise it is not an attempt to subvert justice/a betrayal of the country etc. Just because someone voted "Remain" does not mean they can be excluded from discussions about the nature of Brexit: do we stop Labour voters having a voice on the actions of our Conservative government? Of course not - the critique if the opposition is vital to good governance.

1. That being said, we should not hold a second referendum. Can you imagine?! It would still not be wise to ask the people what they think as there aren't enough people (I would say there is only a tiny percentage) who are qualified enough to make a fully informed decision on what is in the country's best interests.

1. It is therefore vital that Parliament have a say in the manner and timing of Brexit. The case heard last week on whether an Act of Parliament is needed to invoke Article 50 (and what, if any, conditions might be attached) is not an attempt to "subvert democracy". If we value our democracy we need to ensure due legal process is followed to implement change.

1. The role the press have played, and continue to play, in all this is shameful. What can be done about this I do not know. I only hope that people get angry when they realise quite the degree to which they have been lied to. We need more honesty generally.

We have to hope they want a good deal with us too or Brexit is an impossible dream
World is just like this. We wanted oil. We bombed the hell out of Iraq. Never mind the humans living there. We wanted bases and regional control. We bombed the hell out of Afghanistan. I think there have been amazing posts here from people like smallfox and tiggy and bear that have explained why we are in a vulnerable state compared to EU countries right. They will want good deals. For their own people.

I think having a decent trade deal with UK is actually one of their wants though. It would benefit their people too. Well if it isn't we really are screwed.

deal or no deal.

What sort of deal are you talking about? As far as I was aware, it's all about splitting up the various assets - so deciding who pays MEPs pensions, and things like that.

So we crash out of the EU after our two years are up. Who will Farage bleat to when his pension doesn't get paid, because no one has got round to sorting it out? Not that I will have any sympathy for Farage.

Trade deals. They are key to Brexit. Also thinks like how we operate in Customs union or outside it. They are complicated with lots of dimensions. Also how will fit in WTO, at the moment we are EU signatories. I think those deals will be more restricted than anticipated.

Trade deals won't happen until after we have left. So we are talking about something happening in about 10 years time, or longer.

Small,

You are being quite pedantic about negotiating pre a50. No, we cannot have a binding agreement but we can easily pre negotiate at national leader level where the broad thrust of detailed negotiations could be agreed.

However, we and Europe are playing a silly game of brinkmanship. They can threaten WTO rules only and in return we threaten to cut corporation tax to 10% or less. Not really good for either side.

larry
They didn't start it to be fair.

It is pretty hard to pre negotiate when you don't have a clue what you want. This is where the UK is. This is reality, whichever way you voted.

Leaving is a fiendishly difficult concept where any feasible solutions leave the UK worse off. The politicians know this, despite their bluster.

If Brexit wakes you up in the middle of the night, may I suggest you need to get a life?

I was ambivalent about leaving but now we have decided, lets get on with it. I think the process is being made a lot harder by the 'remoaners' using the excuse of no one voted so leave the single market.

Yes they did, that is exactly what they voted for and if MP's try to keep us in the EU it will rip this country apart.

typo, "the excuse of no one voted so to leave the single market"

I really wish people would stop using the term "remoaner". It's so childish.

Talking.

We know exactly what we want. Maximum access to single market while limiting freedom of movement of people.

They know what they want: uk to pay a price for leaving but not to destroy trade with uk completely.

Somewhere in the middle lies the final agreement.

Larry, see the statements from the Scottish and Welsh leaders today. The UK govt does not have a clue how to proceed.

Which is understandable, as all paths leave us worse off:

What would you prefer over remoaner ?
Moaning remainers ?
Sore losers ?
Unlimited migration supporters ?
Anti-democrats ?
Undemocratic ?

Well why isn't May getting on with it? All bar two of her 'remoaner', (as you put it), MPs are happily singing along to the tune, Brexit means brexit, and she has a small majority.

Could it just be that she hasn't a clue what she wants, and is now finding that the other EU countries are not impressed with her tone?

Quornflakes seriously grow up.

Why aren't the Leavers taking the lead? They were happy to tell us four months ago that they had won. They don't seem to be doing much now, except for the three Brexiteer stooges opening their mouths and putting their foot in it.

Terms of ref were stupid, outcome was hateful but we are stuck with it. No to new ref.

Of course trade will be part and parcel of any deal to leave the EU. Trade is cornerstone of the EU. What the chuff will we do in the meantime. What about customs? These are not long term ambitions, these are things we need as soon as we leave.

Realists, Quorn.

statements from the Scottish and Welsh leaders today. The UK govt does not have a clue how to proceed

Or alternatively you could say "the Scottish and Welsh leaders are using Brexit to further personal political agendas". Scottish independence anyone?

Us whiny elitist remainers warned about likely break up of U.K. post Brexit. We have to suck that likely consequence up as well.

Of course trade will be part and parcel of any deal to leave the EU.

Who says? Wishful thinking won't make it so. Eventually we will no doubt negotiate some sort of deal, but it won't be quick.

And even if we do negotiate something the Canada experience shows that it might not be ratified anyway.

To the person who was being all patronising about pre-neogitations, can you point me to the bit of Article 50 that says "there shall be no pre-negotiations with a MS who wishes to leave the EU".

You can't. Because the clause isn't there. It's the choice of the EU leaders not to pre-negotiate. If they wanted to, they could. They might feel they have good reasons not to. I disagree with those reasons. But I would like it if people on MN check their facts before they start patronising the rest of us please.