To be confused that dh has said I should get a part time job

[oopsIdiditagain21]

DH has a good well paid job and we have always agreed that he goes out to work and I support him by looking after home, DC, him etc. I thought we were both happy with this arrangement and he has only recently said he couldn't do what he does without me doing what I do so he can relax, do hobbies and so on when he is not working. I don't complain about my role and have always felt lucky. Then today he said I should get a part time job to get out the house. I do have a hobby I love and friends so it's not like I'm stuck in all the time. How do I take this?

The thing is, I do nearly all those things SAHPs reckon constitute a working day on this thread, and I hold down a full time job in a university plus I am a landlord, and I have one kid with serious SN plus three others, and I wouldn't really say I am particularly knackered or anything. I do wonder what on earth they do all day. I have also never met an interesting SAHP of older children, if I am brutally honest. I think it's a rather lazy option and many women go off the boil intellectually and become overly dependent on men, and their conversations become rather circular and dull. I've taught the kids of older SAHMs as well and they aren't as clued up or resilient as those with mums who hold down proper jobs. I therefore remain unpersuaded of the benefits of SAHP as a positive lifestyle choice and I think many women are kidding themselves if they think this is work

I don't actually disagree with you but your argument overlooks the fact that for lots of SAHMs it's not really a choice.

For example, DH and I earned the same amount and were on similar career trajectories when we met and for the first theee years of our relationship were totally equal in this regard.

Then I had our first child and took a year's maternity leave. When I went back to work, I still earned enough for us to cover the cost of childcare and it still be worth me working.

But, my career really stalled. I wasn't offered any opportunities despite pushing for better stuff because I couldn't work the long hours they wanted me to. I was overlooked for promotion, etc. In the two years after my first maternity leave my career was no further forward than it was in the year preceding it.

In the meantime DH has got a new job and doubled his salary.

I'm on maternity leave again and intend to go back to work. Even paying childcare for two DCs, it will still just about be worth it, but only just.

I can completely understand how, for a lot of women, it doesn't make financial sense to keep working. They can't afford to.

And yeah, you could say it's worth staying in work because it's hard to get back into it after a break. But to stay in work and essentially go backwards? I'll be the oldest person at my level when I go back. People I've managed will be managing me. It's very demoralising and affects your confidence.

From your post I'm assuming (and I could well be wrong, admittedly) that:

A. You have older children in school?
B. Working in a university means you have hours more in line with the school day? (DH used to work in a university and was able to turn up at 10 and leave at 4.30 most days.)
C. You and/or your DP earn decent money and have support close by.
D. Most crucially, you enjoy your work. When you feel undervalued and bored in your work, it becomes very difficult to see how it's worth it when it takes you away from time you could be spending with your children.

If women were paid more and work places offered better flexible working conditions do women could pursue the same opportunities as men; and if childcare was subsidised and less expensive, then more men could take on more of the childcare and more women would be able to stay in work.

It's insidious. I have two university degrees and had a good career. I never thought I'd ever find myself considering being a SAHM, but I'm one more bad post-maternity leave year at work from giving up.

Boffin
I have also never met an interesting SAHP of older children

I suspect they are avoiding you

I hope this thread isn't going to end I with everyone trying to out do each other about how amazing they are and how they have a zillion perfect kids, run ICI and run homes that look like they come out of magazines. I know there are Mums that can do it they like to drone on about it on Mumsnet and good luck to them but it get a bit competitive

I was made redundant whilst on maternity leave with my eldest DC, otherwise I would have gone back to work but could easily have found myself in the same position as Ducking. I had a well paid job in marketing where long hours, socialising with clients in the evenings and trips away were pretty standard. Anyone who expected to waltz out of the door at 5.30pm to pick up kids and refused to go on trips could kiss goodbye to the thought of promotion.

So I can empathise with how demoralising it must feel to watch others overtake you. I'm probably working at a slightly lower level now (although in a different field) than I would have been if I hadn't been a SAHM mum, but not so much that I regret having done it. I think that (if funds allow and DH is agreeable), mums should do what makes them feel happiest - which will be different for everyone.

DuckingAunts, I agree with everything you say and I have also found myself in that position. And a huge caveat to everything I have said is that it can't apply to women with kids under five (or even maybe eight) very helpfully as childcare costs are crazy. Plus having young children is really demanding. I am really aiming my comments at work with older primary or secondary school aged children.

At the moment I actually have a full-time job, commute 60 miles each way, but work from home 1-2 days a week. We use after school clubs and have someone do the school run for the youngest child 80% of the time, more if necessary. The older ones get themselves to school. DH works full time and commutes 60 miles each way every day. I am too senior to do the university mummy track thing.

I think there are two things that come out of this for me. Firstly, the act of mothers ducking out of the workplace makes it more difficult for everyone. This is because it allows workplaces, and indeed society, to set themselves up in a way that penalises people with dependents. Also some mothers in the workplace abuse goodwill where it is there. All this needs to end - we need systems that are consistent across the country, so having sworn Debra doesn't even need to be discussed particularly (this is the reality for most men, I reckon, as the female massive picks up all the pieces for then).

Secondly, women need to learn to move jobs more often. The thing that holds back pay and progression most is staying where you are comfortable. If you move jobs when they become unhelpful to your wider mission you will do a lot better. The worst reason for taking a job is that it fits conveniently with school runs/school hours/domestic duties or whatever, unless you are determined not to progress. That's not to say you have to knacker yourself, but I am saying that you can often develop new systems that make your life work for you. Once your kids are in KS2 or older this becomes a real possibility.

And my home will never look like it features in a magazine, whether I was working or not!

Sworn Debra is not a user name, it is spellcheck's answer to some dependants.

Butterfly, my house actually does a lot of the time since I ditched all superfluous stuff and designed in simplicity where possible. I am not being smug - I approached it like a project at work.

Examples from my sitting room, where I am now - changed sofa cushions to foam so they don't need plumping. Carpet offcuts bound and put in areas where kids drop food on floor when I am not looking, glass tops on wooden tables to save cup marks, a few large ornaments rather than lots of small ones, large storage coffee table and TV tables so games console accessories out of sight. It only ever takes 5 minutes to get back on track.

I'm not sure that mothers who have managed to get into good positions are always helpful. I've often found them less understanding.

I was recently turned down for promotion - my boss told me they wanted the flexibility of someone with no childcare issues. I had offered to do the same hours over more days but apparently that was not acceptable. I would love to progress, but many days I just think why bother as I am not seen in that light at all. It's a bit like acting, you become invisible after a certain point in your life!

Are you able to find a new employer and try a fresh start? It sounds like these people are scuppering your progress at any turn.

That boss has broken the law, by the way, but I am sure you know that.

Secondly, women need to learn to move jobs more often. The thing that holds back pay and progression most is staying where you are comfortable

I tried to get another job. I did five interviews but the general feedback was: why are you still at the same level that you were four years ago? I.e., there must be something wrong with you, so we're not going to progress any further.

That was a massive, hard, scary wake up call. Until then I had never not been called back for a second interview at least.

It's partly to do with the industry I'm in (although 15 years on it's a bit too late to do anything about that!) But whichever PP said it's like you suddenly become invisible was right.

Firstly, the act of mothers ducking out of the workplace makes it more difficult for everyone

Also, I meant to respond to this too and say that my point was; women don't actively duck out of work. All too often it becomes untenable to stay.

My hope is that I can weather the shitty, small children, career limbo years and go on to progress as you have.

It'll be a good few years of hanging in by my fingernails though. At the moment I couldn't say how it'll turn out.

I think there are two things that come out of this for me. Firstly, the act of mothers ducking out of the workplace makes it more difficult for everyone. This is because it allows workplaces, and indeed society, to set themselves up in a way that penalises people with dependents. Also some mothers in the workplace abuse goodwill where it is there

BoffinMum I am LOVING your posts on this thread. I tend to think that long term SAHParenting is bad for both the parent and child's mental health - I see this in my mother and her several sisters (all married in the 50s/60s and all SAHM), and I've been very very wary of it in my own life, and that of my generation of my family. I think my own mother's complex response to SAHM, and the shock of the empty nest, led to all sorts of difficulties for her - a low-level undiagnosed chronic depression, she had years of therapy, and I know that I haven't ever seen her as the safe secure "haven figure" - in my memories, she always seemed so out of touch with the world. I suspect she gradually found having a brood of children (I am one of many!) easier than dealing with the "outside" world.

Now that could be my own mother's particular psychology, but I've seen it in a lot of women of her generation, and their daughters - with marriages falling apart once the children are older, and the SAHM left high and dry.

The thing is, I do nearly all those things SAHPs reckon constitute a working day on this thread, and I hold down a full time job in a university

And yes, yes, yes - I love what you say here: I do most of the house stuff before breakfast, then go to work. And I bake, batch cook, sew, etc etc etc.

But it's not really about being Superwoman ... I think it's about mental health and well-being and having a publicly-valued useful place in the world. Yes, raising young children is this. But it's not entirely this - there comes a time when we need ALL the talents of all our people. And we need all people to feel valued.

I've read too many novels and histories/autobiographies of women over the last 300 years who were forbidden from equal pay for equal work, not permitted to work, and so on - the illnesses of "hysteria" or Betty Friedan's "feminine mystique" are rife when women are forbidden from full participation in all parts of society. I find it really depressing that so many women don't realise the value and power of hard-won equalities and freedoms.

I can't fathom why when your kids are in school you wouldn't want at least a part time job? Don't you want done financial independence? I would feel really bad paying for a treat, new outfit, shoes, nails etc out of my DP pocket.

All this talk of all 'housework done, happy kids, happy wife when he gets home' is so 1950's.

DuckingAunts, what industry are you in, out of interest?

I think you should get a job to insure you against being unemployable in future. Even if you stay married until you die, you may want or need to get back to work. And if you don't stay married you could end up in a very poor state if you can't find employment. It's beyond me why any woman would make herself unemployable like that.

And yeah, you could say it's worth staying in work because it's hard to get back into it after a break. But to stay in work and essentially go backwards? I'll be the oldest person at my level when I go back. People I've managed will be managing me. It's very demoralising and affects your confidence

I have a number of friends who felt this while their children were under 6 or so. Then as the "baby tunnel" disappeared, their careers have really blossomed. I know a number of women in their mid to late 40s whose careers are rocketing.

(I was never in a situation where I could ever think of not working full-time).

DuckingAunts, what industry are you in, out of interest?

Media wankery. Heavy emphasis on relationships and networking and drinks and travel, etc.

All good when you're child free. Impossible when you have to leave the office at 5.30 because there's an hour's commute and nursery shuts at 7pm.

The funny thing is, my company thinks it's really progressive regarding mothers and flexible working and to be fair, they talk a good talk. But it hasn't been backed up with any action in terms of giving mothers good roles or the juicy bits of business. Mums in my work place just care take the shit bits that no one else wants.

I have a number of friends who felt this while their children were under 6 or so. Then as the "baby tunnel" disappeared, their careers have really blossomed. I know a number of women in their mid to late 40s whose careers are rocketing.

This is heartening! It's what I'm holding out for.

Ask him if he thinks cooking, cleaning, looking after kids etc doesn't count as a job!

If it really is him just worrying about you not getting out of the house enough (and knowing my DP, he'd say something like this not realising the subtext) then might be a good idea to arrange some "personal" time to do what you want to do.

Completely agree with whoever said long-term SAHPing is bad for mental health though. Seen this myself with a few relatives who have been at a loss after their kids grow up and seen many marriages fall apart when there's just two people in the house.

Nearly every immediate relative of mine has worked, only taking a bit of time off maternity leave. My grandma had 6 kids and managed to hold a job down although as she was widowed quite young she had no other choice really, she couldn't take time off to be a SAHP. My mum had 4 and carried on working although I think she has the same problem of not knowing what to do now she's retired. She volunteers a lot and does a lot of WI things and stuff in the community though which I think keeps her busy.

Ask him if he thinks cooking, cleaning, looking after kids etc doesn't count as a job!

It is work, of course it is. But whether it is equivalent to a full or part-time job is very much determined by how young/dependant their children are, which the OP hasn't answered. If the kids are older/at school, is there realistically likely to be 5-6 hours per day of cooking, cleaning, and general family 'admin' to do?

Ducking Ha! Sounds like this could be the company I worked for!

SpaceUnicorn

Ah yes, just noticed no ages are mentioned. If the kids are at school then yeah, might be a good idea to start looking at part-time work as the longer you leave it, the harder it is to get back into the job market.

If they're toddlers then I imagine there's plenty to do, like you said.