to think Urban Outfitters were right?

[PenileImplant]

mic.com/articles/154301/urban-outfitters-misses-the-mark-on-gender-nonbinary-acceptance?utm_source=policymicTBLR&utm_medium=style&utm_campaign=social#.lYCPcDysd

"Let's clear something up right off the bat: I am trans. The reason this seems like a proclamation worth making is that, to the untrained eye, I may seem like your everyday New York City cisgender gay guy. I haven't had any hormones or facial electrolysis, and I don't have any boobs. But make no mistake: I am trans. I wear basically all women's clothing, makeup, and hairdos and I identify as a gender-fluid trans person"

So he is a man. He looks like a man, presents as a man, calls himself Nicholas, and does not refer to himself as a woman but he is upset that he was not allowed to change in the women's rooms despite being told that there were currently young girls in the room.

Gay lad: that's the right idea. Why trans men can't just be normal and think the same way, I cannot fathom.

(as if reproductive function were the beginning and end of gender)

It's the "beginning and end" of SEX. Toilets, hospital wards, prisons, changing rooms are SEX-segregated (mainly for reasons of safety of the female sex).

I don't believe that transgender people are doing it for fun, I do believe there is a stigma and that they are discriminated against (passed over for jobs/marginalised in society). But none of that makes them the opposite SEX.

YANBU at all. I have friends that are quite arty and wear a wee makeup and dress differently to what you might see in Zara Hombre, but they are most definitely not trans. I find it disrespectful that people claim that makeup and clothes = trans, there is a lot more to it.
Like my colleague, white middle class, atheist with dreadlocks that once identified as a rastafari in my presence.
People in Burma could hear my screams

I've lurked on quite a few trans threads. There's been the odd one that actually discusses the issues in a calm and reasonable way (and I've got a fair bit of sympathy with the arguments when they're expressed like that).

However the pattern for most of the threads I've seen seems to be picking out one individual who identifies as trans from some news story or social media post, then ripping them apart. Derogatory comments about their appearance, name calling, horrible speculation about their motives and behaviour.

I cannot think of another situation outside of trans threads where this kind of abusive language would be tolerated. Well, maybe murderers, rapists, Donald Trump?

Seriously, listen to yourselves. It is fucking unedifying. You're clearly intelligent people capable of engaging with a complex issue - any chance you could do it with a dash of respect for other people and some kind of self-awareness? I hope you understand how much of a turn-off this is to people who might be sympathetic to your arguments but finds the utter bile that gets spouted on these threads quite appalling.

Toilets, hospital wards, prisons, changing rooms are SEX-segregated (mainly for reasons of safety of the female sex)

Well, I guess the discussion turns on whether these spaces should be segregated by sex or gender. Personally I think that the problem is with the male gender rather than the male sex (i.e. the safety issue is because men are socialised to be violent and aggressive rather than biologically-predetermined to be so).

Hands up I didn't know what cisgender means so I've just looked it up and it says a person who's gender corresponds to their assigned sex.

So he identifies as a man?If he does then I don't understand(please no one rip me a new one,I have brain damage so things that I found easy to understand before the brain damage I can struggle with now)why he has an issue with not being allowed to change in the womens changing room or have I read it all completely wrong?

Myown, if the problem is gender, how do you explain rapists like Davina Ayrton? Is he just pretending?

A 6 foot 6 lumberjack won't find much that fits in the women's section.

Maybe he's in the plus size section?

Well, I guess the discussion turns on whether these spaces should be segregated by sex or gender

Easy - it's sex. Why would we segregate by gender identity? What would be the purpose of that? Single sex facilities are for privacy, dignity and safety.

Or Long Tall Sally?

Personally I think that the problem is with the male gender rather than the male sex (i.e. the safety issue is because men are socialised to be violent and aggressive rather than biologically-predetermined to be so).

I agree that a large part of the danger is from socialisation (although I think physical characteristics play a part too). But I think the socialisation occurs to people born of the male sex, not those who identify with a particular gender. Society doesn't have any idea what "gender" preferences a baby/small toddler will have and they will receive male socialisation if they are of the male sex. Presumably part of the reason people feel gender dysphoria is because society treats them in a certain way because of their biological sex?

Let's be honest. Even a male who has no or is and a neo vagina, hormonally induced breast growth, electrolysis and wearing makeup and a dress still isn't a woman. I think many women ware ups be more likely to accept such a person in female spaces because they have made a significant commitment (and cannot carry out rape) but they still know that's not a woman.

"The amount of hatred and ignorance spurted out against trans people on here is vile. Switch the word 'trans' for 'black' or 'gay', or even 'women' and have a think about it."

Irony just died, got wheeled down to the morgue, twitched briefly, had a funeral and now everybody is busy hoovering up free sherry at the wake.

The impact on women is THE WHOLE FUCKING POINT. Not many of us really care too much how others live, and how they pursue happiness - wear what you want, modify your body how you want (assuming you're an adult and have given informed consent), put makeup on if you want, no one really gives a fuck. I could even live with people writing whatever self-centered rubbish they like on Tumblr or wherever if only it didn't have this awkward habit of spilling over into reality. I can see that the trans community has particular needs and I'm happy to support it in getting those needs met. That's fine. I'm with you all the way, truly.

For me and many people, the line is drawn when you start claiming that your rights matter more than those of women, and women should just shut up and move over and make space for you in any women's place you feel like going, because that matters and women's right to safety in sex-segregated spaces does not. That idea can just fuck right off. We will NOT shut up, we will NOT move over, we will continue to fight for the right to name and end our own oppression.

If you don't get this, that's where our amity ends - and the fact that some trans activists don't seem capable of understanding this is just further proof that they are not women in any meaningful way, and never will be.

Still Spartacus.

I never knew I was a cis woman until now wtaf. There doesn't seem to to be a woman's voice in mainstream media outlining the damage this is having on feminism. When I've discussed it socially, I've been told off and have had said to me "trans people are vulnerable and are unhappy in their birth gender, so what if they want to use gender specific toilets, changing rooms etc" .... But it's more than that isn't it, it's deeper and I do think misogynistic. Although I couldn't/can't articulate these thoughts without sounding biggoted. For instance my husband said "they're not an army bombing women" but it kind of feels like it, doesn't it?

Sorry several x posts

I know a woman who was born with a penis. She was operated on as a baby and didn't know her medical history until adulthood. I wonder where she would change?

So was this bloke wanting to try frocks and thought he'd be thrown out of the men's changing room? I'm wondering about kilts now.

So what is he then? An effeminate gay man or does he want to be a woman? What does he think being a woman is?

ohtheholidays

No, he IS a man but identifies as a woman and therefore feels he has the right to walk into a female changing area unchallenged.

His right to do that seemingly trumps the rights of the women in that changing area but that's ok because women should apparently be doing a lot more to break down the gender binary

His friend Tamara is also a woman but not simply because she identifies as such. She's a woman because she has a vagina and a vulva.

That makes her a 'cis' woman because she identifies with the genitals she happened to be born with.

This also means that she is unfairly advantaged because of her 'cis-privilege'.

In my opinion he is just a self-absorbed little twat (though he looks wonderful in make-up, I'll give him that). His opinion of me therefore would be that I am 'archaic' and 'unethical' and struggling to come to grips with his 'post gender' world.

I dont think I've missed anything out ......

Brava, Puntastic! You say what I wish I were eloquent enough to say about these issues.

Thanks aliz I've had that one brewing for a while tbh. Feels good to have finally articulated my feelings properly.

'Well, I guess the discussion turns on whether these spaces should be segregated by sex or gender. Personally I think that the problem is with the male gender rather than the male sex (i.e. the safety issue is because men are socialised to be violent and aggressive rather than biologically-predetermined to be so).'

But they don't get socialised as the gender they believe they are. Socialisation involves the way everyone around you treats you, and if they treat you as a man and encourage the aggression and entitlement they believe is right for a man, you're not going to grow up with the sense of having to put yourself last that is socialised into women.
This individual certainly doesn't seem to have picked up female socialisation. Nor has the leading trans activist who asked a woman at a public meeting recently if she'd like to take their disagreement outside.

Socialisation does not equal identity.

Personally I think that the problem is with the male gender rather than the male sex (i.e. the safety issue is because men are socialised to be violent and aggressive rather than biologically-predetermined to be so).

Ok, but it's sexed characteristics that pose the risk - the size, muscle mass and penis. Identifying out of the masculine gender role doesn't change the presence of these characteristics, nor does it actually reduce the risk that the person will cause harm to others because of them.

'Identifying with your genitals'. What an expression!

puntastic - wholeheartedly agree.

If the trans community organised a demo to campaign for 'non binary' changing areas and loos (in addition to the current male/female provision), then I would be right there marching alongside them in support.

It is time that their needs were recognised.

That is where my support stops however. Men in women's only spaces?

Over my dead uterus.

I would not feel comfortable in a mixed changing area.