Not wanting children... How did you know for sure

[Labyrinthian]

Background - mid 30s. Together 15 years. Lots of nieces and nephews, friends with children. Play a team sport where we regularly mind/ watch/ chat to all ages of children.

For years we put aside idea of kids - when we get married, when we move country, when we buy a house then we will think about it. But...

Reality is I've never ever been broody. No interest at all. I enquire about my friends kids, appear v interested, but honestly I don't have a real interest in having my own. (I should say kids seem to love me, even babies, unknown why, but even stroppy teenagers like me).

He is worse than me, really no interest at all. Has a huge moan every time one of our friends gets pregnant and always assumesits an accident! Basically mindset of 17 year old (oh and he's great, I'm just being honest about this side of him).

So as far as I see it we are not good candidates for parenthood, but society says otherwise. So does my family.

I feel like we are at decision age. I don't like the risk that either of us would be bitter if we had kids, and I don't mind ignoring the mainstream view of society...

But has anyone felt they really missed put and regret it later in life? Or was anyone like us but then has a surprise pregnancy that changed everything?

I will be inheriting a business and property and feel guilty that I am being given this, but would not have a family to pass it to (as I know how my parents would like me to have kids)

If anything the world has opened up and we feel like a new life had begun.

Yes. Yes, I had that when I stopped telling myself that I should be playing happy families with my ex and her DD.

This reminds me of the non-drivers thread.

"Everyone who doesn't drive is really missing out."

"Well, I don't drive for x reason & while I can see it might have its advantages I'm just fine without it."

"But everyone who doesn't drive is really missing out..."

I am a bit flummoxed by feeling the world had opened up by having children. Having children can be fun, but in what way does it open up your life?

But don’t see why you feel the need to play devil’s advocate, user1471552005? As a childfree woman, I don’t play devil’s advocate when people tell me they are trying to conceive or hope to adopt. It would be socially unacceptable (and unkind) for me to do so. It’s interesting to consider why having children is assumed to be an opt-out decision, which has to be justified, rather than an opt-in where people justify why parenthood is right for them. Particularly I was thinking about this comment: Unless you have had children you don't know what the experience is like.

We can have a pretty good idea that parenthood is not like the images advertisers try to sell us, nor those which people post on facebook. It’s clear, talking to friends and family, spending time with children, out and about seeing families interact, and on forums like mumsnet that the reality is different: parenthood is about hard work and sleeplessness, lack of money and worry, isolation and feelings of failure, in addition to the joy children bring. It’s obvious mothers still carry most of the burden, providing the majority of the childcare, bearing responsibility for running the household, often taking the financial hit to salary, job prospects and pensions, while too often their partners don’t pull their weight. And it’s possible to reflect on those points and knowing your own strengths and weaknesses decide whether it’s a decision you think is the right one for you.

While it’s taboo to say it: not everyone is cut out to be a good parent. As with every other aspect of human endeavour, a minority of people are naturally great at it, the majority are okay and muddle through, for better or worse probably depending on how well their personalities gel with their kids’, and a minority of people are bad at it.

Perhaps my perspective is skewed because my grandmother was not maternal and did not want children, but lived at time before the pill. She had six children and mentally and physically abused them all. The NSPCC were involved and my father was fostered to get him away from the violence. His advice to me was always ‘only have children if you are absolutely sure you want them’ because in his own words, his mother didn’t and made their lives a living hell. However, while I hope that’s an extreme example, you only have to read things like the stately homes thread, to see bad parenting is not uncommon and has lifelong effects on children.

So I question the assumption which lies behind the idea that parenting is an opt-out choice, which is that everyone is cut out to be a good parent. It’s not true. I’m not suggesting that people who don’t want children, don’t want them because they fear they might be abusive; or conversely that people who do want them, will automatically be great parents but question the idea that it’s fine to suggest people who are uncertain about having children, should consider having them, because there’s no possible way that could go wrong.

Why this investment in bringing potentially unwanted children into the world? Why do people think they know better than an anonymous person on the internet, whether they would be a good parent? They’ve never met them – how can they be sure? I think the answer is they are not sure, they just don’t like to consider people might be bad parents – maybe that idea is threatening – but I don’t think their discomfort with the idea justifies making such a big assumption.

I was just giving my opinion of my experience. But considering this site is called Mumsnet if you say anything positive about being a parent then there is always someone ready to jump down your throat.

Our lives did open up as when all our friends (aged 45+) dumped us we ended up with new friends

Freakonomics argues that crime went down in America, because abortion became easier. Encouraging women to have children who don't really want them, is not a good idea.

I think there is lots positive about being a parent.
So by your life opening up, you meant you made a whole new set of friends.

New friends were much younger than us. Also dd and ds have different hobbies that have taken us into situations where we would never have thought we would have participated in.

De-lurking

This thread is very interesting, hope it doesn't become just "us vs them" (although it looks to be heading that way!)

I can see both sides. Had unplanned baby very young, love her to bits but hate "parenting" - by which I mean kids activities, other parents, mess, other people's kids, etc etc etc. Now she is older I enjoy "being a parent" a lot more but I'm sooooo grateful I don't have a small child hanging off my legs.

If I could turn back time I would still have had her - despite the crap / boring bits - but I'm pretty certain that I don't want to do it again.

I'm in a dilemma though as have "new" DP and we umm and ahh about having one together.. However as past posters have said it should be opt in not opt out! I am a realist and there are lots of other things I would rather do now than spend the next 10 -12 years with a dependent child making demands on my time and energy. I wasn't able to travel etc when I was younger so I feel like having a baby now i would be extending the period of time I can't do those things, having only just got DD to "fairly independent" age.

10 years ago I was you OP, totally and utterly. I was 35 and married, enjoyed my time, freedom, sport, holidays, money etc and neither of us wanted children. At all. Ever. Both had good careers, with obvious progression etc. People had actually stopped asking us "When are you going to have children..,", because I think they assumed something was wrong!

Then one day (it was my 37th birthday) we were having our summer holiday in November because work had been crazy. I'd begun to think that there must be more to life than this work/sleep/sport/work/work/work cycle.. And DH came out with "I want someone to call me Daddy".

DS arrived 10 months later.
DD 3 years after that.

They have turned our life upside down, inside out and given it a really good shake.

Anyway, I think what I am trying to say, is that you can never say never. I knew that I didn't want children. Then one day I knew that I did. That knowledge - both ways - was deep seated, certain, visceral, but it flipped.

Absolutely, RedAmberGreen1. You only have to look at the Stately Homes thread or read the number of threads by posters who have gone or are considering going NC with their mother to see that some women simply aren't cut out to be parents. It's a harsh but true fact that in X years down the line, a proportion of the children of current MN posters will be posting on the future equivalents of those threads. Some may even be the children of posters who would extol the joys of motherhood to a childless person considering the decision.

As a PP said, admitting after you've had children that it was the wrong thing for you is probably the biggest of society's taboos. I don't mean as in the "harassed mummy with devil children" style blogs that are currently popular but women who genuinely and permanently regret and resent having given birth.

And to those who didn't want children then became pregnant by accident, kept their baby and fell in love with motherhood - there's no guarantee that if your accident hadn't happened, you'd be any less happy or satisfied with your childfree life. It would just have been different, not necessarily lesser.

I do think Oliversmummy that it is easy to get into a rut with life. And sometimes anything that shakes up our life can be good.

DD has definitely changed our lives for the better - I feel that it's more meaningful. However DP and I both knew 100% that we wanted to be parents. We are friends with a couple that 100% don't want children - they are very involved with their nieces and nephews and always want cuddles from DD, they just don't want to have children - and I must say I'm a tiny bit jealous of their upcoming round the world trip!

I know parenting is a wonderful, positive thing for a lot of people. I have a couple of friends who have just adopted a little boy and I've never seen them happier. I can see the strong bonds between other friends & their DCs & I know they wouldn't have it any other way.

For some of us it would be hell on earth, and we know ourselves well enough to recognise that.

So there we are.

BikeRunSki

Then one day (it was my 37th birthday) we were having our summer holiday in November because work had been crazy. I'd begun to think that there must be more to life than this work/sleep/sport/work/work/work cycle

This is a really horrible comment.
You are implying that people without children don't have fulfilling lives, which is very nasty.
You are also assuming that even if you are thinking 'there must be more to life' that children are the answer to this. That's not the case for everyone.
You are also suggesting that parents aren't stuck in a cycle of work/sleep/sport/work/work/work but with a dollop of child-focused activities in there (e.g. work/sleep/get the kids ready/drop the kids off/work/work/work/pick the kids up/go to watch school play/sleep). This is surely still a rut though a slightly different one.

Great post RedAmberGreen1. Its absolutely true that not everyone is cut out to be a parent - why would that be the case? There's absolutely nothing else in life that is right for every single person without exception.

The platitudes you hear about parenting - 'every parent loves their child', 'parents will do anything for their children' etc etc - are just that. Trite nonsense that gets trotted out to serve a purpose. Its easy to pledge that you would kill or die for your child because you're highly unlikely to ever have to follow through on grandstanding promises like that. Its a hell of a lot harder to do the mundane stuff - genuinely put their needs first, think about what is best for them and do it even when its boring, hard, scary or seems thankless, allow them to have feelings and opinions that are separate from yours, genuinely love them unconditionally. Some parents do all of this and do it brilliantly but it's by no means universal and I think it would do everyone a lot of good to acknowledge that. You don't get sprinkled with magic fairy dust that turns you into a kind, thoughtful, loving or nice person when you become a parent but some people seem to think that you do!

DH and I were ambivalent about the whole thing, I was not at all interested in others' children and found them irritating. Before DH I was getting on a bit but would never have gone down the single mother speed donor route, just didn't want kids enough for that.

We talked about it very logically, lists of pros and cons, sought opinions from people on both sides of the debate and in the end decided to go for it. We are/were extremely happy together but felt that having a baby would be an adventure that would bond is even more closely (not a foregone conclusion, I know). That was our personal reason, not a universal premise.

It took us 2 years and 2 rounds of IVF to have our son, who is just 2 weeks old. So far I am overwhelmed by love and fascination for this tiny creature and DH and I are absolutely in a little bubble of fun and happiness (I know, it's nauseating).

People say "it's different when you have your own" and I agree with this- but not because of any abstract reason. For me it is that with other people's kids you are aware that they are scrutinising your interaction with them, whereas with your own you can do what the fuck you like (within reason of course). Secondly there is something about having 100% responsibility for them that just makes it all so much more important and your brain kicks into a different gear.

My experience anyway, I do not dare to speak for anyone else.

Magic I thought your post about hormonal contraception was very interesting and was surprised that some people took it the wrong way.

Oliver "Our lives did open up as when all our friends (aged 45+) dumped us we ended up with new friends"

are you saying your childfree friends dumped you? how awful.

Perhaps I am even luckier than I thought with my "tribe"!

Jessie - 2 weeks? Aww, new new babies are my fave. I know someone else (a mum) who calls it the "gormless baby" stage and says "but they don't do anything" and I'm like, yes, that's what I like about them! From a visitor perspective, they just sleep cutely in the crook of your arm, it's grand

after about 8 weeks, I'm like, meh, it's a person, nothing to get excited about here!!

I wouldn't want it to be us against them either TheGrumpySquirrel, I have the greatest of admiration for my friends with children - and hopefully they find it a positive to have childfree friends. However, I don't post on threads about the positives of having children commenting that posters will never know the opportunities they have missed, nor on threads about how posters hate (at present) having children, about the positives of being childfree. Posting on on a thread which is about how people knew they didn't want children, suggesting they might change their minds, is perhaps a little tone deaf. It's not, after all, a thread about why and when people who thought they didn't want children then changed their minds. That's an interesting topic too, but not necessarily part of this one...

Oliversmumsarmy and BikeRunSki, it's great that having children opened up and enriched your lives. I don't think anyone should suggest they don't, but equally it's not the only option. I did a PhD, which I wouldn't have been able to do if I'd had children, and also made younger friends, experienced new situations and opportunities which I would never otherwise had the chance to do, published, contributed to my field. I wouldn't suggest doing a PhD is for everyone who is in a rut, likewise neither is having children. I think whatever path we take, some opportunities will be available for us and others won't, and it's up to us to make the most of the ones we have.

I don't want it to be us against them either. As for ruts & new lives, I more or less reinvented myself at 40 - new career, new home, new skills - & I'm the happiest I've been for a very long time. Having kids just wasn't part of the equation for me & it never will be. I'm confident on that.

How do you think the people on the hate being a mum thread would take it if childfree women commented there on how much they like not having kids?

Empress

How do you think the people on the hate being a mum thread would take it if childfree women commented there on how much they like not having kids?

I think once basic needs are met, to be happy we all need challenges and to focus on achieving something outside of ourselves. That can be having children, it can be getting a PHD, setting up a charity, doing meaningful work, anything that is meaningful. Simply going to work, and going on days out never made anyone happy really long term.

I can agree with that to an extent, Brasty, but it does also depend on what someone's work is. I "simply go to work" most days, but I find my job intellectually challenging and fun and also enjoy the social side.

Yes which is why I included meaningful work. Work that is a challenge and where the person doing it feels that they are achieving something meaningful.
A lot of work is not like that, but some is.

Lorelei Yes all of our friends, all childless, dumped us. We tried to see one couple as we were in their area staying in a hotel when dd was a few months old. I had dd asleep in her pram in the reception area when they arrived. First words out of the wife's mouth was "Well I hope you are not thinking of having that b***d kid around all evening".

This was a couple we had known 20+ years and considered one of closest friends.

Just because you have children doesn't mean you can't get a PhD or Doctorate (friend with 4 children started hers when pregnant with 4th child and completed it within 3 years). Or set up a charity (Another friend, single parent to 2 primary school aged children set up a charity as well as running her own business). Or do meaningful work. Just because you have children it doesn't mean you can't travel the world or go on holiday. Lots of people on here sound like our parents who made out for years that having children meant your life was over.