to allow my DD to go to the Notting Hill Carnival?

[haventkilledtheorchidyet]

DD (14) wants to go to the NHC. She is quite streetwise and will be going with a couple of friends. AIBU to let her?

sow another poster interested im their own opinion on a culture, rather than one given by the people of that culture!

At least 75% (I'd go closer to 90%) of carnival attendees are returning! So we're now close 1,000,000 women that attend the carnival year in year out, too what? Stupid to understand sexual assault?

Get off your high horses!

I am not saying sexual assault doesn't happen. Hell I'm not say it doesn't happen in NHC. I am saying a blanket dismissal of Caribbean dancing as sexual (without understanding its history, culture and quite frankly understanding anything.... Other than what your so called friends say, or what you 'perceive' when you are not part of the culture) is offensive and actually rather stupid!

Yes Caribbean dancing is more sexual than Morris dancing, by any account!

ALL rhythm based dancing is led from the hips and that form of dancing is more sexual to a European eye, but the norm across most drum based musical cultures.

Choreographed dance is easy to replicate. This form of dance isn't and its why you don't get many people from the around the world able to copy it, and copy it well.

The authenticity and the difficulty level makes it is the most popular form of dancing in these cultures and makes it one of very few dances that make you a truly good dancer in these cultures which are heavily musically, celebratory and dance centred!

The dancing on display by the traditional carnival floats, which might I add is the best representation of carnival, cannot be attributed as sexual alone because a bunch of people from outside of that culture, with not historical understanding or reference points think it is!

Yes younger generations sexualise it, as they do with most things, but they don't represent the 'culture' or the history.

Yes Caribbean dancing is more sexual than Morris dancing, by any account!

Morris dancing is deeply sexual and springs from ancient ideas of fertility, though as much of it is heavily symbolic, I expect people of other cultures might miss the cues.

At least 75% (I'd go closer to 90%) of carnival attendees are returning!

Source, please? Here are the latest stats I could find from the the London Development Agency circa 2002:

Try to come to NHC each year: 20.2% (British/Irish) 36.1% (Mixed) 50.7% (Black Caribbean) 40.9% (Black Other)

Been to NHC more than once: 30.9% (British/Irish) 34.7% (Mixed) 30.4% (Black Caribbean) 33.0% (Black Other)

Massively unfair sweeping generalisation Joker... There are inappropriate behaviours that I see exhibited by largely white people but you will not see me making sweeping generalisations any subsection fitting a stereotype as it's incredibly unfair and suggests that there is all there is to know about one group of people. Furthermore, NCH is not frequented mostly by Jamaican men, you only have to identify the vast array of carribean flags on show. There is far more to Jamaican men than whatever stereotypes you may be aware of and your comment suggests that Jamaican men are synonymous with sexual assault. I find that highly offensive.

The thing is, as a visitor it's not the dancing, music costumes or cultural aspect of it that I remember. It's the row of drunken girls in matching t shirts with bare arses squatting in the gutter to pee. It's the piles of stinking rubbish. The kids inhaling heaven knows what from coloured canisters and then tossing them in the road. The fight we saw while two policemen looked on. The way my head rang for days from the pounding bass, the terrified look on my daughters' faces as we were swept up in a crowd which would've trampled us if we stumbled. lt's a mess and it needs regulating,

I think part of the problem is that there are two sides to carnival

1. a celebration of Caribbean culture; and
2. an almighty piss up / free for all

For quite a few people the latter side is overwhelming the original purpose of carnival. I suspect a fair number of people who go now aren't really going to celebrate caribbean culture but to wander around drinking and dancing to whatever music happens to be playing.

Essential ANYONE that knows the carnival will be able to tell you that 2002 stats are absolutely irrelevant. Similar to the mass gentrification which has been endemic in London of which Notting Hill is a prime example!

I don't need 'stats'! I 'am' part of the carnival community and have been for as long as I can remember! The fact you site anything from 2002 highlights complete lack of knowledge. Carnival has changed since then to be a COMPLETELY different event.

I suspect all of the 'fear' and sweeping generalisations displayed on this thread may not exist if you went and saw (with your own eyes, as i did with mine) the majority demographics of the carnival at present.

The only things which are still majority Caribbean are the music and the floats!

In the last 4 years of attending, white people have accounted for at least 50% of the revelers, and this year I would put that figure closer to 65%-70%.

Ask any of the actual attendees on this thread if they saw anything to the contrary!

This thread is full of sweeping generalisations and a lot of them are entering offensive territory.

That people would attend a 'carnival' and complain about "pounding bass" and crowds is actually one of the funniest things I've heard in a long time!

Again, "I am not saying sexual assault doesn't happen. Hell I'm not say it doesn't happen in NHC. I am saying a blanket dismissal of Caribbean dancing as sexual (without understanding its history, culture and quite frankly understanding anything.... Other than what your so called friends say, or what you 'perceive' when you are not part of the culture) is offensive and actually rather stupid!"

"The dancing on display by the traditional carnival floats, which might I add is the best representation of carnival, cannot be attributed as sexual alone because a bunch of people from outside of that culture, with not historical understanding or reference points think it is! " Even if you think with your all so intelligent 'assumptions' that it is.

The dismissal of peoples knowledge and own cultural experience on this thread is astounding!

You are all missing something so obvious.... We are telling you what we know! We were there and we come form this culture. You were not there and everything you think of culture is tainted by your own cultural understanding and experiences. Surely it's logical to acknowledge what we say over your assumptions?... Or maybe not!

clippity As with any festival and large gathering of people, the drugs, the mess & the drunks are part and parcel. What were you expecting? It's common sense not to take your children into the middle of ANY crowd!

Bit heavy for me now, I went for the atmosphere and took my eldest so he could experiance something not available anywhere else obviously if you are with a child you are unlikely to get groped

In the last 4 years of attending, white people have accounted for at least 50% of the revelers, and this year I would put that figure closer to 65%-70%.

I've given you actual statistics, citing a source. Can you do the same? Where did that figure of "At least 75% (I'd go closer to 90%) of carnival attendees are returning!" come from?

Otherwise it seems like you stopped twerking and daggering long enough to pull these percentages out of your arse.

It's fine for you to say that feel that 90% of attendees are returning, but then I get to feel uncomfortable about random blokes grinding their dicks into me, and that feeling isn't ameliorated by you going on about "culture" and how we interlopers just don't understand.

As with any festival and large gathering of people, the drugs, the mess & the drunks are part and parcel. What were you expecting? It's common sense not to take your children into the middle of ANY crowd!

From police chairman Ken Marsh - "“The Glastonbury music festival had 40 arrests this year. Notting Hill had ten times that amount."

But what does he know? You were there .

If you would like to explore your incorrect assumptions and actually educate yourselves, here is a good example of partially dressed women twerking as you call it!!!

Most of our people would actually say they were dressed in traditional carnival attire dancing a traditional carnival dance, to soca which is the traditional carnival music!

You can see it as sexual but I honestly don't. I see it as a form of fun, expressive and sometimes difficult dance - because it is standard in my culture. Your culture makes it hard for you to view it that way, but that doesn't mean your opinion should rule over mine? It seems more logical that people from an actual culture are better able to label what something is and isn't no?

Btw what is twerking? My understanding is it is a generic name for hip dancing which we have been doing for centuries that Miley Cyrus suddenly invented typical... Am I wrong?

Essential And how many times the amount of people did Glastonbury have in comparison to NHC???

I think you may have shot yourself in the foot there love!

J0kersSmile Are you Caribbean? Do you have a Caribbean mum, dad, brother, uncle, friend, teacher, doctor or lawyer to know this? - Your sweeping generalisations are ridiculous and I have not seen anyone stand by there ignorant 'stereotypes' in the way you have in a long time.

You have displayed yourself to be something! There is that old saying 'There's no point arguing with a ....". So I will now quite happily ignore you!

Oh and some mass crowd images of the 1000's of twerkers, daggerers, drunks, gang members, drug dealers, rapists and women that don't mind being sexually assaulted for you....

The further this thread gets in the more I stand by accusation of hysteria! I'm now adding stupidity, ignorance and subtle racism to it.

How boring a lot of you are!

I think you may have shot yourself in the foot there love!

Why? Glastonbury has fewer people, but over a 5 day period. 400 arrests over two days, including 25 for assaulting police officers and 90 for carrying bladed or pointed weapons, and sixteen people stabbed, is disproportionately high. I'd get less worked up about drug-related offences.

I'm also still waiting for a response to this: 'Can you do the same? Where did that figure of "At least 75% (I'd go closer to 90%) of carnival attendees are returning!" come from?'

Because you didn't just make this up, of course.

Lol I have to ask myself what the motivation is for a lot of you to be making the arguments that you are? Especially if you have no intention of ever going

I've been already, as I said earlier on this very thread.

And Essential not every argument needs statistics to be made! Especially when those statistics may not have been collected... Obviously!

If you chuck around statistics like "At least 75% (I'd go closer to 90%) of carnival attendees are returning!" then, yes, we get to ask for statistics. Because otherwise it implies that you're trying to extrapolate from your feelings to facts.

So, where are they? Come on, you obviously didn't just make that up.

Lol Essential without outing myself I have a heavy hand in related event organisation. These figures are what I know to be true from my personal network and equally work related networks. Static sound systems play a massive, if not majority part in Carnival. These sounds are not easy to get to/get into and you will see from the social pages of a lot of the promoters and after parties, plus floats alone - most attendees are reoccurring.

Of course your 2002 stats and your one time attendance of the carnival (if that's even true) mean more than my working knowledge of the carnival alongside a lot of the London based Carribean community....

Yes your source may be correct but its 14 years old love... It's irrelevant!

Glastonbury attendance accounts for less than 10% of NHC..... It would be incorrect to look at those statistics side by side in the first instance. Obvious reasons not to would be the fact the event is not ticketed and open to all, lack of age restrictions and the fact the event happens in 13,000,000 strong city.

But before I get into that, what are you trying to imply by comparing the two events? What would YOU say is the difference between NHC and Glastonbury?

Meh, I've lived that life. I've got two dc who's dad's are from ghettos in Jamaica and are typical stereotypical 'yardies', my best friends parents are Jamaican, I've lived in areas where there's more black Caribbean people then white British and been to college in that area as well as living with the dcs dad's.

I was a stereotype. I used to have big gold hoops, was out in the 'ends' every weekend and thought I would the Bees knees 10 years ago. Thank god I grew up and stopped wasting my life. Stereotypes don't pop up for no reason they're made.

I don't know anyone who's not got dc who go to see the floats. It's not about the floats it's about a street party, the drink, the food and dancing. I also don't know anyone who's in that culture who would let their young teens go there. Most older Jamaican women hate the way the men are and would never let their dc go to carnival.

I'm quite partial to a few rum punches (if anyone wants the proper recipe I'll type it out) and a dance. I like carnival, well I like Bristols Jamaican carnival not NH for the reasons I've already stated on the first page, but it isn't the place for unaccompanied teens and there are always problems. Problems relating to the culture which does date back to the slave trade.

I'm very surprised at the negative connotations people seem to think the Carnival has.
I have been a few times. I think it's fun. Never felt threatened or anything. Honestly don't remember seeing any crime. There are drunk people but just the same as at any other festival or club.

I wouldn't let my 14 year old go though because I wouldn't let my 14 year old go to a festival alone either. Plus it's such a nightmare to get to, the crowds are so busy, the tube / buses are all packed and awful.
At 16 or 17 if they knew how to get around and were with sensible friends though yes. With no worry at all.

Lol Essential without outing myself I have a heavy hand in related event organisation. These figures are what I know to be true from my personal network and equally work related networks.

Still waiting for a link to the stats you quoted. I'm hoping your next post starts with link or for you to be big enough to admit that you don't have them, because you made them up. My "personal network" - is that what we're calling our friends these days? - all hated Carnival, went once, didn't go back. But if I say that on here, I'm told that we all just don't understand Caribbean culture.

But before I get into that, what are you trying to imply by comparing the two events?

You asked clippity, "As with any festival and large gathering of people, the drugs, the mess & the drunks are part and parcel. What were you expecting?"

I replied with a comparison to Glastonbury - longer festival of fewer people, 10% of the number of arrests, far fewer arrests for weapons and GBH.

I'm comparing the two events because you asked what one could expect at a festival. My answer is, less casual violence, better crowd control.

I'm not going to reply further to you until pigs fly I see a link backing up that 75%/90% figure. Otherwise I expect you're going to carry on making vague references to your "working knowledge" of the event/community, without sharing any facts that might help the rest of us engage productively one way or the other. Feelings are lovely, but yours aren't worth any more or less than anyone else's on this thread.

Looking on the bright side, there was apparently a £2m increase in the cost of policing the NHC, between 2015 to 2016.
If the crime and costs continues to rise, it won't be long before it either moves and / or becomes ticketed, regardless of what anyone says.
Hopefully before anyone is caught up in a crush.

not every argument needs statistics to be made! Especially when those statistics may not have been collected... Obviously!

So why use so many of them? Like Essential I'm also waiting with interest for a proper source ...

Joker please do not be under any illusion that because you've "lived that life" you are somehow qualified to make as many disrespectful comments as you like about Caribbean culture. You can speak on your experience based on the people you lived amongst, but you sounds nothing short of ignorant when you start spouting negative crap about the whole of the Caribbean, you sound ignorant and hateful. It doesn't take s genius to realise there are negative aspects of ALL cultures, only an idiot would use negativity to generalise everyone. If I came on Mumsnet categorising all white people by the standards of where I live or the unsavoury behaviour of my neighbours, there would be absolute uproar and quite rightly so. Not sure why it's being allowed or excused in this instance

I'd like a good rum punch recipe Joker.

^misses point of thread^