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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to allow my DD to go to the Notting Hill Carnival?

243 replies

haventkilledtheorchidyet · 28/08/2016 20:04

DD (14) wants to go to the NHC. She is quite streetwise and will be going with a couple of friends. AIBU to let her?

OP posts:
LostQueen · 31/08/2016 13:55

There's mc stereotypes all over MN and working class ones as well.

Doesn't make it ok.

WeGonBeAite · 31/08/2016 14:00

Essential oh sorry, in DIRECT response to your 2002 stats, I must not have been clear when I said that I am not quoting stats, and that my stats come from my personal experience and that of most people that have been there more than once over the last 10 years.

If you remotely knew what you were talking about you would see the ridiculousness of citing stats form 2002, regardless of who collected them!

Seriously, are you aware of the changes London has gone through - particularly ethnic communities?

If you had an ounce of insight, you would bank on a strangers observations as much as you would 2002 statistics... You're so out of your depth with this one! It's clear...

Stat's are not needed for everything... Again, obviously! - For whoever it is that asked why we collect them, I ask why we don't we collect them for everything? Stupid question.

Joker your name is so ironic it couldn't be any funnier. You are a racist and an overt one at that. The fact that you are so brazen and that you don't have an ounce of understanding the simplicity in your arguments is dangerous.

Your 'mixed heritage' children will tell you this in time. Mark my words.

Hopefully their not too damaged in the meantime, as their ways are you know..... are in their blood! The shock you'll receive when your great insight into Caribbean culture isn't enough to stop them being truly Caribbean, regardless of your Black friends!

So cliche it's sickening.

Go to a family gathering and spout your wisdom!

chipped Your probably right about the changes it will undergo. Especially if gentrification keeps moving at the rate that it has. At least you guys that push for gentrification are open? This thread has some great insights that we all know, but that people deny.

Oh well! We'll still have our dancing and laughter. I'd take that any day over choosing to spend my life moaning about an occurrence that happens twice a year, that I'd never even go to.

Again, still struggling to understand the motivation for a lot of you here!

Boredom if I had to hazard a guess Grin.

Seriously get down to the carnival.... You never know, it might lighten up your quiet lives! Learn a little twerking and that Wink - You know you've always wondered how it's done.

I'm off now to go and have some fun. Enjoy your outrage and hysteria. It's clear that you need this to bring some fun into your lives. Be careful what you wish for though, the boredom will only increase when we're all gone!

Puzzledandpissedoff · 31/08/2016 14:04

my stats come from my personal experience

I think you'll find that anecdotes aren't the same as data ...

nceccoli · 31/08/2016 14:13

I think there are some arguments at cross purposes here. With sweeeping stereotypes of Jamaican men being used to tarnish the whole of Caribbean culture. Carnival in Jamaica is not as big or celebrated an event as it is in other Caribbean islands, notably Trinidad, Barbados, St Lucia etc. Traditional carnival music of soca and steel pan drumming is more a "small"island culture than Jamaican culture. The static sound systems and DJs are typical of a Jamaican Rave and NHC carnival blends all of these together. So it is true that the floats and bands, while dancing in what could be considerd a sensual manner is cultural of the traditional Carnival type dancing and wining.
But the static sound systems do attract a crowd that like to engage in extreme Jamaican dancehall type dancing which involves very explicit twerking and daggering and is akin to simulating sex.
Most attendees that I know of follow a Mas band and have a great time. But i do agree that being caught up in the thick of extreme frenzy of people dancing "dancehall" style could be intimidating to the uninitated and yes there could be some men who refuse to read unwillingness of a woman to engage in such dancing whether she states it explicitly or through body language.
But to say that this is part of male jamaican culture is ignorant and borderline racist to me. I have been to jamaica a number of times, went to dances/raves and when things felt a bit much i backed away for some breathing room. No man forced himself upon me or ground himself upon me when i was not engaging any more. My partner is Jamaican and enjoys listening to a bit of dancehall music every now and then and he would never dream of engaging in extreme daggering in the middle of a dancefloor or simulating sex. Even in Jamaica there is a clear distinction about the types of people who frequent dancehalls and practice the extreme moves and they do not enjoy a very good reputation amongst the right thinking upper, middle or working classes. Putting it bluntly, it is regarded as gehtto culture. Unfortunately, this is glorified in countries like UK with british born black youths engaging in it. But it is quite wrong to say it is part of Caribbean culture in genral or even part of mainstream Jamaican male culture.

revealall · 31/08/2016 14:19

WeaGonBe. Wow. Quite a lot of racism and stereotyping going on in that last post of yours too.

Crocodillian · 31/08/2016 14:41

This thread has taken an interesting turn. I'm sure that the OP was wondering whether her 14yo dd should be allowed to attend carnival. Which has been and gone now.
Interesting to know how people really think though, being from a WI background I don't often hear these opinions in rl, it's always good to know. People will smile in your face and talk behind your back so it's good to be wary of people's true feelings.

J0kersSmile · 31/08/2016 15:16

dione 1 cup of lime juice, 2 cups of white rum, 3 cups of juice, and a little bit of peppermint essence.

Yeah funny how I'm being called racist. This same conversation was going on between my dds grandma and her aunt on Monday. Everyone there thinks carnival is to much nowadays and wouldn't go. I'm not going to argue anymore as it's now getting below the belt and not really facts.

There's also a thing going on in Jamaica called big man leave them young girls alone, there's a lot of people in that culture fed up of the way the men are. Theres reasons for it but it doesn't change the facts.

Please don't feel sorry for my dc they don't have any identity issues and nor will they.

Chippednailvarnishing · 31/08/2016 15:20

I'm finding the massive assumptions about what race posters are very telling as are the insults and opinions being dressed up as facts.
I don't associate the NHC as anything other than an uncontrolled piss up. I certainly don't look at as an example of mainstream Caribbean / West Indian culture.

J0kersSmile · 31/08/2016 15:33

Also personal attacks about my name, my dc ect are against the talk guidelines. None of my posts are racist. HTH

As I said there is a class culture about those who do dancehall as have others. That's not racist to point out. There are problems in every culture in the world but unfortunately carnival brings that out in that culture.

clippityclop · 31/08/2016 20:12

I don't think I'm boring, don't give a damn about the anyone's skin colour or race, and for the record I have close family who come from Jamaica. I've been to a number of organised festivals over the years too. Based on my own experience NHC should not be promoted as a family friendly event in tourist publications. The route gets dangerously crowded. The fact that the police turn a blind eye to behaviour and mess that wouldn't be acceptable anywhere else doesn't reflect well on the city. Hopefully the situation will be reviewed to everyone's satisfaction.

Puzzledandpissedoff · 31/08/2016 20:34

JOkers that punch recipe sounds wonderful; lethal, but wonderful all the same Grin

Am definitely going to give that a go ...

J0kersSmile · 31/08/2016 21:26

You can add water to it puzzled to make it go further. It is lethal but very nice.

DioneTheDiabolist · 31/08/2016 22:17

Thank you Joker, I'll give it a go at the weekend.ThanksWine And if I post incoherent shite, I'll blame you.Grin

Puzzledandpissedoff · 31/08/2016 22:17

How about soda water, JOkers - do you think that would work?

You're reminding me of the rum punch they served all day during a tour of St Lucia. There was so much fruit in the stuff it didn't really seem very alcoholic, and anyway I thought they might not be over-generous with the booze since it was for visitors

I was wrong Shock Grin

J0kersSmile · 31/08/2016 22:58

I'm not sure about soda water. Adding water does seem strange but my ex always added water and it doesn't make it watery. Grin

I don't add water but then I love rum! Try the soda water in a cup with the mixture in otherwise if it doesn't taste nice you'll have wasted all that rum but I'm sure it'd be nice.

I've also forgotten to say about the strawberry syrup that goes in. Please go to a Caribbean food shop and buy the strawberry syrup it won't taste the same without it. It's only a couple of pound and it's what makes the punch, can't believe I forgot it.

It's 1 sour (lime) 2 sweet (strawberry syrup) 3 rum and 4 juice/water and then a little bit of peppermint essence. (which is the secret ingredient)

WeGonBeAite · 01/09/2016 11:15

Interestingly, today I came across this!

www.antoinespeaks.co.uk/in-defence-of-notting-hill-carnival-black-culture-if-you-want-to-ban-carnival-due-to-crime-then-ban-football-nightclubs-and-epsom-derby-day/

Some excerpts:

The media focuses their attention and headlines on increasing crime-related arrests and incidents. Rather than 99.99% of people enjoying themselves and going home unharmed.

‘2,000,000 people attend Notting Hill carnival, 440 get arrested which works out 0.022%. The event is described in the media as “marred”.

At Glastonbury 2015, 75 people arrested, 175,000 attend, this works out 0.043%. The police describe the event as “low crime”, the Daily Mail praise Glastonbury for cutting crime in half.

Notting Hill Carnival brings millions of pounds into the local economy. Glastonbury displaces wildlife and brings disruption to surrounding villages, but no income.

So racism and the lobby of gentrifying insurgents wouldn’t have anything to do with this anomaly would it?’

The 2016 Euros showed speaking ‘Jamaican patois’ and Black culture could not be blamed for the horrendous acts of criminality seen in France. ESPN reported there had been 1000 arrests. A figure, that is more than twice the number of Notting Hill Carnival. Even without those stats, most people could see the stark difference in violence and hooliganism between football fans, when compared to the dancing of the majority of Carnival attendees.

2011: ‘Taking all 3,051 individuals taken to a ‘first hearing’ and excluding those who had no recorded ethnicity, 41 per cent were white ( i.e NOT JAMAICAN ), 38 per cent black, 12 per cent mixed, 7 per cent Asian and 2 per cent Chinese or other.’

The Guardian reported “A section 60 order, which covered the entire carnival area, allowed officers to execute random searches”

Ninety arrests were made for alleged possession of points and blades
169 for drugs
38 arrests under the new Psychoactive Substances Act (balloons)
40 arrests were made for alleged public order offences
25 arrests were made on suspicion of assaulting a police officer
7 for common assault or actual bodily harm;
13 for sexual offences;
10 for theft from the person,
8 going equipped for theft; six for grievous bodily harm;
3 for drink or drug driving;
2 for criminal damage;
1 for robbery
32 others that the Met did not specify
Yet, if the police used their Section 60 order powers to police festivals like Glastonbury then they would find significant Class A Drug use. Enough to film Scarface remake and a couple seasons of Narcos. However, they do not. Therefore, festivals like Glastonbury cannot be used as a fair comparison to the most policed event of the calendar year. Even though technically the crime rate is higher at Glastonbury despite nowhere near the level of policing.

I would love a Notting Hill Carnival where there was 0% crime. But each Saturday night around Britain the basic foundations of Carnivals result in the same equations.

Music + Drink + People = Good Times – a small amount of public disorder

With 2 million people attending carnival over a two day period, it is ridiculous to expect there not to be any public disorder.

OP, the same as you wouldn't allow your 14 year old to go to say 'Glastonbury', I'd say don't allow your 14 year old daughter out to NHC.

At 17 yes!

Ignore the hysteria! It's based on prejudice.....

Stat lovers.. If you would like to cross reference:

www.avonandsomerset.police.uk/about-us/freedom-of-information/previous-foi-requests/glastonbury-festival/crime-statistics-glastonbury-festival-2015/

www.met.police.uk/foi/pdfs/disclosure_2016/february_2016/2015090001643.pdf

I think they stand behind my earlier comments. Proof that 'cited' 2002 stats don't mean more than someones own eyes and knowledge!

Puzzledandpissedoff · 01/09/2016 11:28

Adding water does seem strange

Oh well, looks like I'll just have to drink it neat ... I'll cope somehow Wink Grin

WeGonBeAite · 02/09/2016 18:19

Grin silence!

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