To think that this story perfectly illustrates what's wrong with the idea that self-identification alone, should be what legally defines your sex?

[AskBasil]

www.cbc.ca/beta/news/canada/prince-edward-island/pei-human-rights-complaint-1.3735833

Basically this woman in the beauty salon felt scared. Rightly so, because the person concerned had been stalking her and was threatening (shouting) when she refused to do what was asked of her.

Our spidey senses are there for a reason. If someone who looked like a man, sounded like a man and behaved like a man had been stalking me and then wanted to be alone in a room with me, I'd want to get the fuck out of that room pretty damn quick.

I wouldn't have a problem changing in front of her but would probably question her initially

I hate being naked in front of anyone unless I am voluntarily going to have sex with them. However in a communal gym situation I could cope with being naked in front of lesbians; I could cope being naked in front of Kelly Maloney who has had top and bottom surgery; I could cope with being naked in front of the very sweet Jen Bob who posts videos about her experience as a transgender woman ; I could cope with being famous in front of Caitlyn Jenner as they all look like woman.

Danielle is not a woman.

I could cope with being famous in front of Caitlyn Jenner

Ah yes, but I imagine Caitlin wouldn't like seeing you be more famous than the Kardashians

I noticed that after I'd posted. It doesn't really make much more or less sense whether I'd said naked or famous.

Although why my phone changed naked to famous is a mystery.

I think we're all entitled to our feelings. The difference is, we do not impose our will on other women.

Saw this on Buzzfeed:

www.buzzfeed.com/davidmack/east-penn-transgender-change-room?utm_term=.srenx7ePX#.rq197jVEb

This girl is basically being denied her right to a full education unless she goes along with this.

How hard is it to provide a third changing room? I think the problem is, that if a room was provided for objectors, that would be packed and the 'girls' room would be empty. So, of course, female born women are denied the choice to prevent that happening.

A third room for 'objectors' would almost certainly have to be monitored to protect the user from abuse from transactivists and their supporters.
A woman unable to feel comfortable using a women's changing room, what the fuck is happening here?

Oh, lets face it. Because of the ridiculous, feelings based laws America has adapted, if a boy did decide to use the girls facility, the school would suddenly think sengle sex stalls were a marvellous, perfect solution. In fact one women said when her son did want to use the girls, the school did exactly that. Single sex stalls are much better for us women, ironically!

I don't think girls will ever be forced to take their clothes off in front of boys. Can you imagine the uproar if a school was stupid enough to abuse the children this way?? transactivism would be fucked in one, fowl swoop.

I'm actually more horrified that gym attendance is compulsory for academic graduation from high school.

One fowl swoop- that will be when the chickens come home to roost? (sorry)

Thank you for your brilliant post manatee

I am a mother of 3 girls. I really don't know how I'm going to teach them to keep themselves safe if that's going to be undermined by situations like those described here.

My DH is incredibly liberal and can be a bit like the "right on" transactivists - as a 6'2", heavy set, former wrestler, it just wouldn't occur to him to be frightened in many situations at all.

Last night we were discussing how I left a supermarket queue due to a man in a motorcycle helmet standing too close to me at the checkout. He didn't get it at all - as a 5'1" female (non-wrestler ) I am often on high alert.

That's the bottom line - there are physical differences between men and women that leave women at risk. No amount of being understanding or talking about feelings and identities can change that.

He is a lovely, intelligent bloke - understood it immediately once I pointed it out. We would both describe ourselves as feminist but he can't ever see it fully from the woman's POV being, well, a man.

Here to register my disgust at the use of cis. I am a woman. It requires nothing more.

Special, are you aware of the case of intact 17 year old biological male Lila Perry, who was proposed an area behind a curtain in the ladies changing and claimed discrimination for being told to go behind the curtain and that they would consider it but would make the decision themselves. 200 girls protested and they were basically written off as silly little bigots by this trans child and the media. The school board challenged the decision in several courts, I think it's still going on.

In Iowa or somewhere (sorry not able to google right now)

In Missouri. Lila Perry was offered the compromise of changing in a third, gender-neutral room or behind a curtain, but refused. Quote from an article:

“There’s a lot of ignorance. They are claiming that they’re uncomfortable. I don’t believe for a second that they are,” Perry said. “I think this is pure and simple bigotry. I wasn’t hurting anyone and I didn’t want to feel segregated out.”

So, teenage girls who say they are uncomfortable changing clothes in front of a male teenager must be both bigots and liars.

It's that old issue of male privilege what I say goes even though I feel like a girl/woman

It's actually outrageous that girls are being treated like this.

I wasn't all that keen on undressing with other girls tbh. To have to undress with a boy in the room as well, would have been really unpleasant.

How is it that people who understand that forcing a woman in a burkini to undress on a beach is a deeply abusive act, do not understand that forcing teenage girls to undress in front of boys (whatever sex the boys think they are) is also an act of abuse?

The Lila Perry case is particularly disturbing as there is a photo of him pre transition making a sexually aggressive gesture. He is not the poor discriminated-against innocent he is making out - these girls have good reason to feel uncomfortable changing with him but they are being told that as he is trans that counts for nothing.
There is also film of him walking about in a skirt with a visibly swinging dick. The trans people I know would not do this - they generally do their level best not to upset or offend anyone.
The fact that they are the ones stigmatised as bigots is just utterly barking.

'they' meaning the girls, in my last sentence.

Ask, from the limited reading I've done, the answer is, they don't think they are asking a girl to undress in front of a boy.

I've now looked up at the Lila Perry case and also looked at TERF is a slur.

I'm starting to think the world has completely lost its mind. Also I'm wondering how America lost the plot on this? Also news to me that Jenner hasn't had lower half surgery.

I found it outrageous too. Lila Perry comes across as a nasty, bullying, attention seeking little twat in everything I've seen. But in any case, girls should not be forced to change in front of boys. Their fundamental right to privacy and dignity is being breached. I can't believe people can say anything different. Unless, of course, you perform the logical contortions required to accept trans ideology and buy into the Orwellian newspeak.

Manatee

Thanks for that brilliant post. I have saved too