To think that this story perfectly illustrates what's wrong with the idea that self-identification alone, should be what legally defines your sex?

[AskBasil]

www.cbc.ca/beta/news/canada/prince-edward-island/pei-human-rights-complaint-1.3735833

Basically this woman in the beauty salon felt scared. Rightly so, because the person concerned had been stalking her and was threatening (shouting) when she refused to do what was asked of her.

Our spidey senses are there for a reason. If someone who looked like a man, sounded like a man and behaved like a man had been stalking me and then wanted to be alone in a room with me, I'd want to get the fuck out of that room pretty damn quick.

Loathe to step into another bun fight about trans

But here you go. I am a gold star lesbian cis woman

Hth

"It's this nonsense that anything a trans person does is The Worse Thing Ever and will Doom Us All that is just so wearing."

You've missed the point of the thread if you think that's what this is about.

This is about the fact that self-identification is already the standard by which men are legally women in some states and that may happen in the UK unless we oppose it effectively.

Self-identification means that women are put in extremely vulnerable and possibly dangerous situations they are not legally allowed to extricate themselves from, without being legally guilty of discrimination against someone with a protected characteristic. This has implications for our employment rights and in this woman's case, her business.

I cant get too worked up about this. I don't think the OP has illustrated their point in any way with that story. In this case I think the discussion should be about whether the person in question was dangerous, not whether they are male or female. Some will argue that by virtue of having male biology this person was dangerous but that's a terrible road to go down.

This is about stalking, nothing to do with being trans

Didn't you read the sorry? It's everything f to do with trans, a lerson stalking a vulnerable woman is the one using the trans status to justify their predatory behaviour

IPity I'll care about what I like thank you, regardless of geographical proximity. These issues affect every woman in the Western world as its going to change the dynamics of how we retain safety, dignity and privacy.

I don't understand why the term cisgender is any more or less offensive than the term heterosexual

One refers to sexual preference, one refers to gender. I am a woman, not a cis woman, I find it offensive to have a new terminology penned by misogynists enforced on me

Good for you Nanunanu

The issue here is that a male has been stalking the female owner of the salon, has decided to present themselves as a transwoman to be able to stalk the female owner further, and then when they were refused service because the woman was scared of them, is using their fake trans status to complain and harass the woman further.

That's a big problem. Women should be able to run their businesses without men harassing them, no matter how that man decides to present himself.

Also, I am not cis, I am just female / a woman. I was born female. A doctor looked at my body at birth, saw a vulva and correctly documented that I was female. I have a male sounding name, short hair and live in trousers and T Shirts. I work in a male dominated field. This doesn't make me a man, gender queer or anything other than a woman.

Pinapple
Cis-women can be rapey weirdos too.

Not unless that "cis" woman possesses a penis. Rape has a very specific definition in the UK.

BTW I don't identify with the term "cis" please do not impose your definitions of my sex upon me. I am just a woman.

It's not discrimination. The woman in the salon should have the right to refuse service to a stalker who made her feel uncomfortable, regardless of that stalker's sex or how they identified. Most women would understand that completely, because many women and girls have experienced that same discomfort and feeling of being unsafe.

Kristen McKay's behaviour strikes me as just more male entitlement.

Also, I'm not cis. I don't have a 'gender identity' that either matches or opposes my biological sex, because gender is a social construct and not essentially real. I'm an adult human female., so I'm a woman. I'm not a cis-woman.

I'm heterosexual, you can describe me as such.

I am female, you can call me a woman.

I don't need a qualifier attached, thanks.

It's offensive because it assumes there are different kinds of women. Trans woman, cis women....with both groups under the overarching term, 'women'. No.

Also I think it's ridiculous to say a stalker or predator could easily as be a woman. Considering (these figures aren't exact but in the ball park) around 96% of sexual crimes are committed by males (and that TW keep up the same pattern of violence as males) I'd say it's more intimidating when a male behaves the way Kristen did.

This whole thread really is just one big gaslighting exercise by apologists

I just don't see what the fuss is about myself.

Because people find it offensive. Just like trans people find it offensive to be misgendered. It's not neutral, it is, as mirandayardley said, the language of misogynistic transactivism. It's generally used to put women down. You clearly don't know anything about it so I suggest you read around the subject a little.

maybe they will see what the fuss is about when a convicted rapist can use the ladies showers at their gym because they decided they now feel a bit like a woman.

Am I understanding this. A biological man who feels like a woman can put on a frock and be a woman (with a penis) and I have to step aside and be a cis woman. Shit with that.

I want to apologise if I've offended anyone, I did not mean to suggest in any way that the woman concerned was not valid in her fears for her safety, just that the whole thing was about much more than 'refusal of service for being a man'.

I agree that the whole 'human rights complaint' case is utter balls, but I don't think that one person shouting 'I'm a laydee!' in order to attempt to access 'female space' is indicative of a wider problem, to the extent that this should make us more wary trans-women, they'd have just thought of a different excuse for being a creepy fuck.

I was also totally unaware that people were offended by 'cis' - again apologies, are people also offended by 'heterosexual'?

maybe they will see what the fuss is about when a convicted rapist can use the ladies showers at their gym because they decided they now feel a bit like a woman.

That's not only happened at my local poo, but the transwomen involved are calling us transpobic for not undresssing in front of them.

I'll point out, no one has complained publicly. People have quietly removed themselves from the situation, and we have moved our DC from the local pool and choose to not swim there. The ones that do, are apparently arriving in bathers or getting changed in the (very near) public bathrooms with women guarding the door.

Now there's a huge thread in my community FB group about how transphobic we all are. I don't get it, they get to dress safely - TBH ,the male bathrooms around here probably are not safe - no one complained, but lots of women leave when they arrive and choose to get dressed elsewhere, or choose to show up in swimmers, or like me, changed pools. Now we're being labelled transphobic.

So it's very easy to be dismissive if this stuff doesn't affect your life. But the brutal truth is, it will. It's happening, now. I'm also bisexual, on the sheer level of harassment bisexuals and lesbians get is very fucking frightening. It's also very hurtful to my lived experience as a non straight woman to imply I'm being petty or bitchy. Heterosexual women who dismiss this as a non thing are in for a shock.

And, FWIW, I have taken this into the outside world, MN made me decide to. I have a meeting with so far, six women next week, all mothers, two lesbians and we're going to discuss how we can fight back before things get any more difficult for us - let alone our children.

correct cloud. people can now literally be what they want. i cant wait to test this theory by robbing a bank, and when caught my defence will be that i identify as a mouse, and as such cant possibly rob a bank

just like a man with blatent cock and balls can be a woman not

Cis and heterosexual is not the same. Cis is used as a very, very derogatory term. Trust me. Cis is like saying... Not like the 'N' word, not as ba as that but at least in the case of non straight women, it's use as a sneery 'you're a terrible woman, you're lower than garbage' kind of way. (Actual phrase said to me in my life)

If you use cis, you're colluding in making fun of yourself

Mice are thieves. Pick an animal that does't eat my cats food while the lazy fuckers watch

Special i for one will make my voice heard when my rights are invaded like that.

i actually think people are so fucking desperate to appear right on and modern, they arent able to take their thought train to the next logical stop. its coming people, hope youre prepared to Not Make a Fuss when Big Dave gets his feminine dick out in front of your children at the pool showers.

are people also offended by 'heterosexual'?

no, I am heterosexual I have no problem being called that.

I am a woman. Not a ciswoman.

My sex was identified at birth as female - therefore as an adult I am a woman. Gender is something with is imposed upon me and as a feminist I reject that.

I don't feel like a woman. I don't identify as a woman. I don't present as a woman.

I am a woman. Simple as that.

Ok, I can see I need to do lots more reading before I did this hole any deeper - sorry everyone.

Oh I don't think it should make us more wary of transwomen per se, Pineappletastic, just of any increase in men's rights to declare themselves women and have that status legally protected by the state even where saying they are women is literally the only thing about them that has changed.

This is not theoretical. Maria Miller is considering it at the moment and is minded to go down that route. If we don't oppose it, we will have a situation where more and more men simply state that they are women in order to be predatory and people will be too inhibited by the law, to challenge them.

I don't think that one person shouting 'I'm a laydee!' in order to attempt to access 'female space' is indicative of a wider problem, to the extent that this should make us more wary trans-women

The fundamental problem is, if the law changes means people can self-identify, and a full grown 6' man with a beard and cock and balls is in the changing room of the gym, how do we know if he's a TW or a predator? Do we just risk our safety by assuming he's the former? And would saying "I identify as a woman" abscond the discomfort and fear of women around him? Doubt it!

those darn cis-mice..........