To think that this story perfectly illustrates what's wrong with the idea that self-identification alone, should be what legally defines your sex?

[AskBasil]

www.cbc.ca/beta/news/canada/prince-edward-island/pei-human-rights-complaint-1.3735833

Basically this woman in the beauty salon felt scared. Rightly so, because the person concerned had been stalking her and was threatening (shouting) when she refused to do what was asked of her.

Our spidey senses are there for a reason. If someone who looked like a man, sounded like a man and behaved like a man had been stalking me and then wanted to be alone in a room with me, I'd want to get the fuck out of that room pretty damn quick.

Its - 1) I'm seeing very little evidence of that on here.

2. And this directly effects you how exactly? It's an incident in Canada, not even the same continent, unlike Italy.

Soup Dragon

I don't understand why the term cisgender is any more or less offensive than the term heterosexual?

Doesn't cisgender just describe that a person identifies as the gender they were born, unless I'm missing something?

IPity I can't find that thread you mentioned discussing the lack of response to the Italian earthquake in "In The News" - is it possible to link to it?

c3pu it's an issue for me as a woman because suddenly someone has redefined me as a cis-woman because trans-women exist. I am perfectly happy to be behave politely and kindly towards trans women. I do not accept anyone had the right to tell me I am no longer a woman any more, but instead I'm a cis woman.

Oh, and you can't be born a gender, you're born a sex.

It affects us because we are being threatened with self-identification being adopted as the legal standard to decide sex.

HTH

MrsRyan - what a ridiculous thing to say to someone on the internet. Get a grip.

It's this nonsense that anything a trans person does is The Worse Thing Ever and will Doom Us All that is just so wearing.

It's lazy, lazy activism that allows you to be Outraged on Mumsnet while doing nothing to actually help anyone in the world.

Doesn't cisgender just describe that a person identifies as the gender they were born, unless I'm missing something?

People are born with a sex, not gender. Gender is a social construct. How do you know which 'gender' posters identify with? I rarely wear makeup, live in jeans and Tshirts, do all the building work at my home, do the heavy garden work. What 'gender' do I fit into?

Ipity, how do you know what anyone on this site does to help others?

Are we being threatened?

There's nothing in that article that says the local Human Rights Commission have upheld Kristen's complaint.

I still think it's a "troubled person with an axe to grind" issue, and not a transgender one.

Kristen can say whatever she likes about whatever she feels. Doesn't mean anyone else is taking her behaviour seriously, or that there are wider issues for anybody else.

PurpleDaisies I'm a bit new to the finer points of gender/sex/whatever definitions and whatnot, but I wouldn't say that being defined as a cisgendered person has taken away anything from the previous definition of being just a woman or a man.

As an extremely crude example, the way I'd look at it is if I grew up as a Caucasian all my life, surrounded by other Caucasians, and then I suddenly became aware of African people, I wouldn't feel put out for having to define myself as a Caucasian person instead of just a person.

Not sure I get this. If a homosexual was refused service for reasons that had nothing to do with their sexuality but other behaviours on their part, yet they played the homophobia card, why would this perfectly demonstrate that people should not be allowed to self-identify their sexuality?

Maybe if the discrimination claim was upheld then it might demonstrate that those making that judgement might have made an erroneous one. But not sure what this tells us about self-identification when it comes to concepts that are "internal" such as sexuality or whether one is a man or a woman (depending on what you believer about these).

I wouldn't say that being defined as a cisgendered person has taken away anything from the previous definition of being just a woman or a man.

If you choose to identify as a cis gendered person, that's up to you. I am a woman. I have always been a woman. What gives someone else the right to tell me I now something else?

'Cis-women can be rapey weirdos too.'

Really? What percentage of rapists are biological women? It is ridiculous to suggest that a woman, working alone, has no more to fear from a male bodied person than a female one. Yeah NAMALT but enough of them are, and we really need to give women credit and trust that they know when they are being followed, intimidated, made to feel uncomfortable. No woman should have to put herself at risk out of political correctness.

PovertyPain Quite right, perhaps my post should have said something along the lines of

"Doesn't cisgender just describe that a person identifies as the gender they were assumed to have been born with"

I certainly make no assumptions on anybody's gender on here. Hell, I don't even make any assumptions on their sex...

PurpleDaisies I see your point, to a degree. I wouldn't say I "choose to identify" as anything, really. I am what I am.

However, there are definitions which can be applied to me. Amongst those definitions are Caucasian, which I feel is valid as I am of European descent. Heterosexual is another definition that could be applied to me. Male is another, as I was born with a penis and testicles.

And I suppose that cisgender is also valid, as my gender corresponds to my biological sex. While I appreciate that gender can be fluid and not easily defined, like sexuality, I certainly don't feel that my gender as a man is in any way diminished by being defined as cisgender.

Interesting concepts though.

Ipity what exactly is ridiculous about it? rude and ignorant, lovely combination

Not sure I get this. If a homosexual was refused service for reasons that had nothing to do with their sexuality but other behaviours on their part, yet they played the homophobia card, why would this perfectly demonstrate that people should not be allowed to self-identify their sexuality?

Not self-identification , but I once refused to act for clients of Pakistani origin as they failed repeated requests for ID verification and source of funds for money laundering requirements. They tried to threaten me that my refusal was discrimination. It was not. Having a protected characteristic is not a free pass for bad behaviour.

Pineappletastic
"Cis-women can be rapey weirdos too."

Another person using the language of transgender activism to show the world what a misogynist they are.

We have been known as WOMEN for hundreds of years, but now a MINORITY of people, mostly of the male sex, want that distinction for themselves, so start trying to change the definition to suit their demands. Fuck that! I will keep saying saying it, I AM A WOMAN, NOT A CIS!

MrsRyan - because saying "I hope you don't have daughters" in response to a single post by a stranger on the internet is a ridiculous statement. All the strikethrough font in the world doesn't change that.

Anyway, someone has dared to use the word "cis", so I'm sure the thread will soon be solely focused on outrage about that.

I certainly don't feel that my gender as a man is in any way diminished by being defined as cisgender.

Well done. There are many many women who find this totally unnecessary label offensive.

PovertyPain Homosexual and bisexual people are in a minority, but that doesn't mean heterosexual people should be up in arms if someone defines them as such?

I just don't see what the fuss is about myself.

I've yet to hear a homosexual or bisexual person use the term Cis.

c3pu the idea that by default women can be assumed to have a gender identity and be happy with it, is offensive to me. This is because I don't have a gender identity. Gender to me is a social construct and I don't conform to our society's construct of a woman. That doesn't make me a man or not-a-woman, I am a woman because that is my sex. The fact I'm a woman (my sex) tells you nothing about my identity or personality.

In addition, the constructs of gender have been and are used to oppress women, which adds to the loathing I have for those constructs.