To think that this story perfectly illustrates what's wrong with the idea that self-identification alone, should be what legally defines your sex?

[AskBasil]

www.cbc.ca/beta/news/canada/prince-edward-island/pei-human-rights-complaint-1.3735833

Basically this woman in the beauty salon felt scared. Rightly so, because the person concerned had been stalking her and was threatening (shouting) when she refused to do what was asked of her.

Our spidey senses are there for a reason. If someone who looked like a man, sounded like a man and behaved like a man had been stalking me and then wanted to be alone in a room with me, I'd want to get the fuck out of that room pretty damn quick.

pineapple GF. Reported. DFO

I strongly suspect (from rumours) that pool staff will make the women only sessions muslim sessions, to protect these women btw. I'm very happy about that, but still.

Good old male entitlement never lets anything get in the way regardless of how one is presented

When I worked as a beauty therapist we had to stop treatments on men (apart from manicures as we could leave the door open) as we would get harassed, touched, asked out so often

Of course this wasn't all the male customers but sadly more than enough to make us feel uncomfortable whenever a new male client booked an appointment

Why should women always have to explain why at times they feel the need to protect themselves and this is usually because of previous experience of men trying to indimidate them sexually. Kristen doesn't get that because Kristen hasn't experienced life as a women because Kristen is a transwomen

And really there is no need to use cis especially as it's insulting to many of us as everyone knows what being a women means - an adult human female

Can you imagine the uproar that will happen if they make it all muslim sessions?

It's a fucking mess.

I would have no problem changing in a room with a trans woman. I wouldn't expect her to be leering or trying to touch me, why would she. If she did, as with anyone in the changing room I'd call the manager and have them removed.

Absolutely. And that's great, it's common sense, you have a plan and you feel fine with it. What worries me is what about the women who do not feel ok? Survivors of domestic violence, the 1 in 5 women who have been assaulted, Muslim women who are allowed to attend women only areas only, other cultural reasons, the elderly some of whom may have different and stronger ideas on privacy from their generation, there are many very justifiable reasons why not every woman in that changing room can shrug and say makes no difference to me.

This is where the reality divide is: if you're lucky enough to be ok that's great. What about when it becomes pressure to get ok with it, forget your feelings and get on message or be a bad person? In the situation Special is describing, it's not even been seen as acceptable for those who are not comfortable to quietly cede the space and make other arrangements. It's about whether it's ok to insist women abandon their boundaries and get over any reasons they may have had for them, now, today, because been seen to have feelings about it is not acceptable.

Does it feel comfortable to expect every woman to surrender boundaries she may have in place for herself for her own sense of dignity and safety because someone else perceives it as a rejection? Does 'you're not entitled to have boundaries that upset other people's feelings' seem a healthy one? Or 'if perceived social acceptability clashes with your sense that you don't feel safe, social acceptability comes first''? Not criticising, I'm genuinely asking.

Not and never will be cis
Am and always will be lesbian and female
Cis is a male imposed term
Resist it

I've had this conversation with my TW friend in person, and it was interesting seeing the 'lightbulb' moment they had when I pointed out that they grew up a 6'2, upper-middle-class, privately educated, independently wealthy, white male.

Until the day she chose to make their gender-identity public, no-one had ever looked at her and thought she was weaker or less able. No-one had ever told her there was something she couldn't do, just because.

It had never even occurred to her that she was in danger just by being out at night alone, that others would be decide their needs were more important than hers, that, in fact, others might decide she didn't have the right to sovereignty over her own body anymore, just because they wanted to touch it (or worse).

Now, because she's not a narcissistic twat, my friend is capable of empathy and does, in fact, realise that her experiences in life, even now, just are not ever going to be the same as those of a 5'1 female who lived alone in a city centre for four years. She also realises that there might be times that her needs and wants and feelings aren't, in fact, The Most Important Thing Ever and anyone who doesn't immediately agree with that is a TERFy bigot.

Interestingly, she also agrees that there are some very worrying things happening now, and doesn't agree that self-identification alone should be enough. In fact, what she says about TW who behave as in the article is unrepeatable on here!

'I'd call the manager and have them removed' is fine up to the point where the manager comes to remove them and they deny everything and say you are just making it up because they are trans and you are a bigot.
Women have not generally been the ones to be believed up to now, why would you suddenly expect it to be any different?

Well Countess, that is still no reason to discriminate against trans people.

I think trans people should be given their own facilities. What do you think should happen, Dolly? How should we avoid discriminating against trans people?

Dolly no-one's arguing for discrimination against transpeople.

You didn't answer my question about whether you would feel comfortable about changing in a room if there were a couple of transwomen who look like Danielle Muscato in there with you.

Dolly you completely ignored my entire example that no one is discriminating. No one has complained. Well, I fully intend to, but no one so far.
Refusing to take your clothes off in front of someone you don't want to is not discrimination. I surely hope you tell your daughter that?

So women getting leered at or groped is fine as collateral damage then Dolly? Totally unimportant, not worthy of taking into account at all when considering how to handle the conflict of interests here?

I'd naturally be confused by Danielle Muscato and until a few seconds ago didn't know who she was. But her choice to appear physically as a man leaves her open to misinterpretation. I wouldn't have a problem changing in front of her but would probably question her initially.

Individual changing facilities would be ideal everywhere for anyone who feels the need to a private space to change. Whether they are trans or not. If there was someone who's intentions I felt unsure of in the communal changing room even I could then use it. But if someone was clearly just getting changed, whether they looked like a man or a woman or a trans person or whatever, I'd have no issue with changing alongside them.

Countess, I'm trying to make the point that the trans people are not the problem. People who are leering or groping are. Those groups are not the same person though naturally there are some bad trans people as there are some bad non trans people. We can't discriminate against trans people because of the things bad people do while hiding behind a fake trans persona. Equally you can question a trans persons dodgy behaviour if it's dodgy but not because they are trans.

A lot of people think Muscato is trolling. On balance I think they are likely to be sincere but I would not put money on it.

I still have a lot to learn so please may I ask a couple of questions?

Special, I don't know what your comment about trans activists and changing rooms refers to. Also, I must be honest and say I didnt understand most of that post, but I have feeling most people in the uk don't have a clue what's going on and the guidance about school trips is a real worry.

Cp3, the cis gender thing mostly infuriates me because gender is a complete nonsense in the first place, the sexuality references describe something which actually exists as a clearly defined thing but gender is just vapid nonsense.

Someone mentioned Maria Miller, what is she up to, is there a letter I should be writing?

Why is it discrimination to want female sex segregated spaces for certain things? It's very presumptuous of you to think that because you personally wouldn't have a problem changing in front of Danielle, I shouldn't either.

Ginny, I'm amazed that was a lightbulb moment for your friend and she hadn't thought of it before.

I have a gender non binary contact and she's yet to form an opinion on a lot of this stuff but at least she sees my point that when I worry who is in the changing room, I'm not being anti trans. You could argue I was being anti male but not anti trans.

We can't discriminate against trans people because of the things bad people do while hiding behind a fake trans persona.

Taking steps to keep yourself safe is not discrimination against the person you feel fearful of. Women grow up and live being warned that people with penises want to do them harm. And many women have life experiences that validate those warnings as entirely justified.

Well, I personally wouldn't have a problem changing alongside the actual trans people I know. But if we go for self identification alone then we end up letting in predators with absolutely no protection for women. You would have to change alongside men who are lying in order to perve, with no redress. Because in the real world women who suffer being spied on and 'minor' sexual assaults very rarely get any comeback.
It is simply naive to think the fetishists, of whom there are many, won't exploit that, so we need to either accept that women are collateral damage, or find a way to allow trans women to go swimming while minimising the harm to women.

No Dolly it's not the leering and groping that's the problem, it's the expectation that my 7 yo niece or my 86 yo MiL are transphobic bigots if they do not wish to share a communal changing room with a person WITH A PENIS.

You do not get to dismiss the dignity & privacy of other females because you're cool with unisex changing room, that's not how civilized society works.

SpecialAgent you, or anyone else could just say you are Muslim. Wouldn't necessarily resolve the situation.

It is simply naive to think the fetishists, of whom there are many, won't exploit that

I got booted from a FB group some months ago due to my views on trans issues. Like good old fashioned TA, the people I'd upset knew my then username and 'outed' me on MN, using my real name. Despite the fact I'd given details on that very thread that I'd been a victim of sexual assault. Nice that!

Anyway my point is I argued this, that opportunists would grasp it with both hands - I mean people go to efforts to set up cameras in hotel room bathrooms. A bloke near me recently filmed a woman in Asda mixed changing rooms over the cubicle and was sentenced for voyeurism. Of course per ergs will exploit self identification! I'm willing to bet there'd be more fake-TW than real-TW entering women's spaces.

The cuntbadgers on the group actually argued that menz won't do that, it's just scaremongering and that never happens

They were spectacularly thick though and goes the 'a woman is anyone who feels so' without a description of what feeling like a woman meant, and said TW were more at risk of sexual assault by men than real women - never once seen any evidence proving this, yet another made up stat from transwacktivists

I'm in the UK Lorelei

I'm removing myself from the equation, I just cannot take this on board as my problem. I am. however, going to explain why we left.