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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think that this story perfectly illustrates what's wrong with the idea that self-identification alone, should be what legally defines your sex?

172 replies

AskBasil · 26/08/2016 12:19

www.cbc.ca/beta/news/canada/prince-edward-island/pei-human-rights-complaint-1.3735833

Basically this woman in the beauty salon felt scared. Rightly so, because the person concerned had been stalking her and was threatening (shouting) when she refused to do what was asked of her.

Our spidey senses are there for a reason. If someone who looked like a man, sounded like a man and behaved like a man had been stalking me and then wanted to be alone in a room with me, I'd want to get the fuck out of that room pretty damn quick.

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SpecialAgentSpartacusRoars · 26/08/2016 17:22

Actually I will say there is quite a lot of sexual violence against transwomen, the difference is the particular transwomen I know this happens to are black, very poor and work as prostitutes. Not that working as a prostitute means you deserve it, but I find a lot of the middle class, white Ada Wells types would not necessarily feel sorry for those poor transwomen.

I don't know anything about statistics though, so won't claim that sexual violence is equal/more/less, just pointing out that party line is not a myth.

AskBasil · 26/08/2016 17:22

Dolly I hope you realise that your mental picture of what a woman should look like, is inaccurately narrow, anti-feminist and bigoted.

Danielle says so.

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AskBasil · 26/08/2016 17:23

Lorelei, here's a link to the report Maria Miller was working on www.transinquiry.co.uk/

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PovertyPain · 26/08/2016 17:38

Well Dolly, if you get sexually assaulted in a 'female' changing room, then I'm glad that all you need to do is report it. I'm glad it will have no emotional affect on you, what so ever. You won't be left with self doubt, have flash backs, nightmares, panic attacks or distrust of men. You'll be quite happy to go back into a changing room with a her 'self identifying female' with a cock, won't you? Sure women should be quite happy to put themselves and their children at risk, just in case we upset any men, shouldn't we. Hmm

PovertyPain · 26/08/2016 17:39

Bty, I'm a straight female and I would have no hesitation in undressing in front of a lesbian, because they don't have a cock.

OTheHugeManatee · 26/08/2016 17:40

are people also offended by 'heterosexual'?

The analogy between 'cis' and 'hetero' only works very superficially.

For 'heterosexual' and 'homosexual' to both have meaning, they need to both be subsets of a larger category. In this case, that is 'sexual orientation': the sex of the individuals with whom someone wishes to form intimate emotional and sexual relationships. Hence, both homo- and heterosexual individuals have a sexual orientation. Yes, some are attracted to both men and women but no-one is arguing that the very notion of a sexual orientation itself is nonsense as it manifestly isn't.

Following the same logic, for 'ciswoman' and 'transwoman' to both be meaningful, they have to both be subsets of the same larger category 'woman'. But unlike the concept of 'sexual orientation', which is quite easy to define, the problem with conceptualising 'cis'- and 'trans' women is that no-one seems to be able to explain with any clarity what properties of this supposedly clear super-category 'woman' are common to both 'cis' and 'trans' variety women. Clearly it cannot be biological properties such as a vagina, ovaries or breasts as this would exclude transwomen. But if these are not the properties that define 'woman', what exactly are these elusive properties? Is it a set of conventions around behaviour and clothing? Hair, makeup, a set of personality traits? Who gets to decide these? What are they? No-one can decide or agree, except to fall back on a strange mixture of regressive stereotypes about 'femininity' and a woolly notion that 'it's how you feel inside' and only an individual can decide for themselves. And if it's something that individuals can only define for themselves it's effectively meaningless as there is no objective measure for my or your self-perception.

So what, you ask? Well, basically, by using the concept 'cis' to make biological sex a subset of a larger, vaguer category called 'women', you make that category either meaningless or a mess of exactly the stereotypes that women have been challenging for centuries. And you also make it nigh-on impossible to discuss the very specific ways that people with female biology are at a disadvantage in numerous contexts within society. Because, thanks to the term 'cis' having moved the goalposts for what 'woman' means, people with female biology (formerly known as 'women') no longer have a collective noun that describes them. Which means they cannot easily speak about their experience, conduct political activism related to issues they face or otherwise address the numerous challenges still faced - specifically - by people whose biology is female. None of this is to say there is no other group that faces challenges, but I struggle to think of another group whose very language to self-describe, self-define and organise politically to address those challenges is so unthinkingly under threat, and in the name of liberalism and progress too.

I hope that explains in a bit more detail why people object to the conceptual framework imposed by the word 'cis'. It has profound political implications and simply is not comparable to naming a norm such as white or heterosexual people.

GahBuggerit · 26/08/2016 17:45

i love you Manatee. fab post

PovertyPain · 26/08/2016 17:49

Round of, very loud, applause for Manatee. I wish I could speak so eloquently.

VeniVidiVickiQV · 26/08/2016 17:53

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

sentia · 26/08/2016 17:54

Manatee Brilliant post!

VeniVidiVickiQV · 26/08/2016 18:01

oh fab post manatee

whateveryousay · 26/08/2016 18:46

As the mother of a trans child, this thread is making me feel sick. Just want to point out that I never, ever in a million years would have expected to be parenting a trans child. 'It could never happen to me' and all that. All you trans-bashers, if one of your children turns out to be trans, you will have a lot of back-peddaling to do. I would wish it upon you, if it wasn't so bloody painful for all concerned.

venusinscorpio · 26/08/2016 18:48

I'm sincerely sorry that your child has gender dysphoria. But that doesn't change the situation. What do you actually expect people to do?

AskBasil · 26/08/2016 18:48

Manatee

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rumblingDMexploitingbstds · 26/08/2016 19:02

Whatever have a look on the other active thread about trans issues today, (I think it's the bullshit one part 2) where a TW is talking with great insight and sensitivity about why these issues are crucial for the safety and support of trans teens. This is not bashing, any more than concern about Isis is Muslim bashing.

Manatee I've saved and dated your explanation on exactly why 'cis' is an offensive term that women need to reject, it is a brilliant explanation and needs to be shared widely and frequently.

rumblingDMexploitingbstds · 26/08/2016 19:08

Dolly if you responded to this and I've missed it I apologise:

Again, it's lovely that you feel fine about undressing in the situation being described. Does that imply that every woman should feel like you and that is indeed the only right/acceptable way for women to be allowed to feel?

AskBasil · 26/08/2016 19:10

You haven't RTFT have you whateveryousay

No-one's bashing trans people. We are bashing the idea that you can just declare yourself the opposite sex and hey presto, legally, that's what you are.

Also lots of children go through gender dysphoria but if they aren't put on the trans-juggernaut, they grow out of it.

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VeniVidiVickiQV · 26/08/2016 19:15

what I'm sorry your family is going through tough times. Gender dysphoria is a real and genuine problem for lots of children and young adults. I, for one, would welcome much more study (albeit anecdotal research - coz, ethics etc) and more information on puberty blockers, long term histories etc. We need to know more about what some doctors are advocating as treatment for gender dysphoria - and other types such as anorexia, bulimia etc. In addition, there is much research to be done in terms of dysphoria, and it's comorbidity in people with ASD. There is just Not Enough Information right now which is why people are seeing it as harmful to provide hormone treatment to under 16s on that basis, and harmful to not put more research into dysphoria before some doctors hand out hormones.

And yet still people are trying to legislate off the back of this.

But what you and your child are going through is nothing remotely like this story of a full grown adult male deciding he is a woman, and wanting to be in women's spaces, and then complaining when a woman says they feel unsafe. I don't think the two are remotely comparable. I would say to you that there are lots of people on MN who have gone through the experience, and are able to impart their knowledge from experience to help you, as you will no doubt be able to one day. You'll find nothing but support and sympathy. But it is important - for everyone - to be able to have critical discussion of these issues, even though it might be difficult for you, personally, to witness. Flowers

Lorelei76 · 26/08/2016 19:56

Thanks for answers and links.
My perception may be off but one worry I have is that I don't think the public in general are aware of the whole issue and legislation might come in without objections being raised because people don't know what's going on.

venusinscorpio · 26/08/2016 20:08

You're quite correct Lorelei.

AskBasil · 26/08/2016 20:18

Lorelei, that's exactly what will happen if we don't create waves.

Most people think transwomen are nice old guys who just feel unhappy in their bodies and get the op and look and act like Hayley Cropper.

What reasonable person would deny her rights?

They are completely unaware that the majority now are more likely to look like Ada Fucking Wells, though it is to be devoutly hoped that they don't act like Ada Fucking Wells.

And that's how they'll slide it through. And by the time women wake up and find out what's happened, all the sex-based protections we have from discrimination, will be gone, because men get pregnant too, men breastfeed too, women can be violent tooooooo. Etc. Hmm

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Lorelei76 · 26/08/2016 20:49

I had to look up both of those.
Ada is described as non binary trans. This has now confused me because I thought, probably wrongly, that non binary meant, well, er, non binary, why would you bother changing sex if you were non binsry? Wouldn't that just make you transsexual?

This brings me to another point - a lot of people won't bother worrying about this because it will seem so remote if you don't know anyone.

My non binary contact is having her breasts removed and now wants to be called he, so after all that was said about non binary I have a feeling the next step will be trans. If people look at all this and think they can't be arsed to engage in the debate I wouldn't blame them.

AskBasil · 26/08/2016 21:11

I avoided engaging in the debate for years, I didn't understand why feminists needed to have anything to do with it, it being all about men.

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GahBuggerit · 26/08/2016 21:27

genuinely confused as to why my first post has been deleted Confused

pastizzi · 26/08/2016 22:49

Truly excellent post from Manatee. I too have saved it.

I still find it hard to believe how rapidly and aggressively the pendulum has swung towards trans rights and away from women's rights. Was it this way before Caitlyn Jenner?

And I'm really, really befuddled re how someone can 'feel like a woman'. Who's to say that most biological women 'feel like a woman'? And how do you live your life differently if you 'become' a woman, apart from possibly wearing skirts/ dresses and make up? What part of the gender construct have you bought into re women?