To think that this story perfectly illustrates what's wrong with the idea that self-identification alone, should be what legally defines your sex?

[AskBasil]

www.cbc.ca/beta/news/canada/prince-edward-island/pei-human-rights-complaint-1.3735833

Basically this woman in the beauty salon felt scared. Rightly so, because the person concerned had been stalking her and was threatening (shouting) when she refused to do what was asked of her.

Our spidey senses are there for a reason. If someone who looked like a man, sounded like a man and behaved like a man had been stalking me and then wanted to be alone in a room with me, I'd want to get the fuck out of that room pretty damn quick.

I thought if you ran a business you could refuse service to anyone. I dont see how I could force someone to cut my hair if they dont want to serve me.

Also for arguments sake, if is isn't find cis woman offensive, I still don't identify as a cis person. 'cis' means your sex aligns with your gender identity. I have no gender identity whatsoever. I am still a woman. Therefore I am not a cis woman. I'm sure the TA still have a clever name for people like me though. Oh hang on, yes...cuntscum

*if I didn't

TBH most reasonable men know that most women would feel profoundly uncomfortable changing in front of them.

They wouldn't be in your changing room anyway, because they know they'd scare you and they understand that whether or not they are a threat, you don't know that.

The very fact that someone who knows he looks like a man (what with the hairy chest, meat & 2 veg and beard) demands that you prove you're not transphobic by undressing in front of him as if he were another woman, should ring alarm bells. It would be like a non-trans man insisting that women undress in front of them to prove we don't think he's a pervert. He knows that's unreasonable.

The fact that these people have so little respect and consideration for women's right to feel safe, shows that actually, they are a problem. They're not just innocent transpeople trying valiantly to quietly get on with their lives.

That was apropos of SpecialAgent's post

yes Pineapple you do need to read more. its fucking frightening. womens rights are being chipped away one ridiculous discrimination claim at a time.

a good starting point and my lightbulb moment - have a read about how people with cock and bollocks, biological men, are demanding to be moved to womens prisons, where some will be in there for having to do the ultimate defence against a violent man, or they are in there because men have fucked them up so badly they have gone down a dark path. its scary and its happening. being called Cis will be minor in comparison to whats coming unless we challenge this bullshit.

YY Basil. Just as the trans women on special's Facebook group are not satisfied that they have access to women's spaces against the wishes of the women already using them, they want to shame those women for avoiding changing in front of them. It's a guilt trip so they can violate their boundaries. Like the "cotton ceiling".

YY Ask I feel like good men understand women's fears. My DH will not walk close to a woman on a dark night because, despite the fact he won't attack her, he doesn't want to maker her feel uncomfortable. He understands that the high rate of sexual crimes by men to women has put us in a vulnerable position and tries to minimise fear. He manages not to huff that women are man phobic because they don't want men near them on a dark night.

I'm not sure if other men do this, but it doesn't take a genius to know men intimidate women, and for a man to enter a woman's safe space purposefully is at worst a dangerous predator, at best an ignorant twat.

You will find very few non heteronormative women who aren't aware of how bad things are.

It was very easy for women who in my experience, who were often homophobic, to sneer and mock and scold us for being transphobic, because it didn't affect them at all. The knew they weren't being asked the biggest, ultimate sacrifice. Homophobia aside, i assume these sorts of women are akin to women who were against women going for the vote, or women who shame other women for not covering in a Muslim community etc. It's a way of looking like you agree, while protecting yourself. Though I doubt they were that unaware.

Funnily enough, Iknow of at least four screechy homophobic transactivist women who have sudenly found Very Good Reasons not to get changed in that changing room - while still scolding us, of course

i don't like the way trans women are being lumped together and finger pointed at for being chancers out to use their status as women to rape and violate other women. Smacks of witch hunting and discrimination.

What about the many trans women who are just decent people and wish nobody any harm and just want to live life as any woman does.

I think lots of men do this, PinkyofPie

To a large extent, women protect men from the level of fear we live with when going about our normal lives. We don't mention how we were put on high alert fight or flight 3 times when out running yesterday, or coming back from the pub or whatever.

But sometimes we do let it slip so there are enough men around, who understand the level of threat they represent to us and are decent enough to try and mitigate it in their interactions with us.???

I would have no problem changing in a room with a trans woman. I wouldn't expect her to be leering or trying to touch me, why would she. If she did, as with anyone in the changing room I'd call the manager and have them removed. This all sounds like the 'very reasonable reasoning' people used to spout about lesbians sharing a changing room.

"What about the many trans women who are just decent people and wish nobody any harm and just want to live life as any woman does."

Nobody's stopping them Dolly. But their wish to live "as any woman does" cannot be at the expense of actual women who need safe spaces away from men and that also means transwomen who have not had any surgery or hormone treatment so who are in effect, men.

We can protect trans rights without shitting on women's rights. The way to do that however, is not to accept any man's statement that he is a woman and give it legal force.

"If she did, as with anyone in the changing room I'd call the manager and have them removed."

You will not have the legal right to do that if the law is changed.

On the contrary, you will be considered a transphobe and you will be the one who is removed.

gym scenario

Because Dolly, I have to protect myself and my children against transwomen who actually exist, not mythical harmless transwomen. Do some research on how non herteonormative women are treated. Now it's moving up to you, though straight women haven't yet been demanded to make the ultimate sacrifice.

In all my years as part of the LGBT community, and online, Miranda Yardley, her partner and a few mild acquaintances in real life have been unscary. So TBH I find the people who say NATWALT, often simply don't have the level of experience I do. Not saying all don't - but a lot. I'm glad so many posters here live in areas with lovely transwomen, I'm jealous!

'Cis' is a word used predominantly by heterosexual males and their allies to marginalise women, lesbians, gay men and bisexuals.

If the transwoman in question looked like this Dolly, would you still be comfortable?

I wouldn't, because I would assume it was a man and wonder what the hell he was doing in the changing room.

so Dolly, would you have an issue changing in front of my mate Big Dave, who feels a bit girly so uses the ladies changing rooms? did i mention he has a 6 inch female cock?

if you do have an issue youd be the one with the problem in this new world of accepting that woman is just a feeling

Transwomen who just want to live their lives and not harm anyone don't tend to whip out their penises in female only spaces and call you transphobic for not wanting to see their dick.

Persisting in labelling someone as "cis" when they have specifically asked not to be labelled as "cis" breaches the MN talk guidelines.

It would be nice if HQ clarified whether or not telling someone they are not allowed to object to being labelled "cis" and persisting in belittling their request not to be labelled "cis" is also in breach of the talk guidelines, but I don't think they have.

I really wish people would stop comparing non straight women to transwomen. I cannot believe how anyone would not see how different it is. Lesbians simply don't have a long history of raping women in bathrooms, spying on women in changerooms, putting cameras in toilets. lesbians are raped too, in fact open lesbians have much higher rates of 'stranger rape.' Lesbians still need pap smears, Lesbians give birth, lesbians breastfeed. Lesbians deal with lower pay. Do I really have to go on.
It. Is. Not. The. Same. I find it very homophobic to say so, personally.

Dolly, these women always declared how comfortable they'd be. I think now it's happening, it's a lot scarier than they realised. t's quite easy to say what you'd do in this scenario, but my long, long experience is that most women who claim comfort, find suddenly it's not what they thought. Many never seemed to consider ten year old girls, girls starting their periods etc. they think about themselves, as an adult. And lots of them cannot handle it, which is why they blame us. they get to look like they agree, whilst shifting the 'attention' away from themselves.

It's often very hateful, homophobic and hurtful. But i'm used to people treating me like I'm not a person because of my sexuality.

Before anyone pounces on me, I'm saying men have that long history. Not transwomen.

Dolly Barton, how do you tell the difference between a genuine kind natured transwoman and a predatory chancer in a frock when you first walk into the changing room at your local leisure centre? Rapists and pervs don't have it tattooed on their foreheads. See Schrödinger's rapist blog post about this. Far from every male is a rapist, but any male could be when they're a complete stranger to you and you have no way to gauge, bar your own spidey senses. It's not about the trans status, but about the male status (speaking biologically) that puts women on their guard, especially ones who have been previously sexually assaulted.

Precisely how am I supposed to explain male stranger (read: sexual) safety to my six year old DD, let alone my poor confused boys?

The best I could do was drive further to the more expensive pool. Which is a shame, as this is a very, very poor community and I liked supporting them. But the fact that this is a highly religious area, with elderly Muslim women and girls, basically means those women are forced out o the pool. because these particular Transwomen want to go to the women only sessions. So far, the poor pool staff have resisted by saying they're not Muslim, and virtually every woman who goes is. but I suspect it's just a matter of time.
And as the middle class white, straight women don't really consider Muslim women people, they are happy to push anti Muslim rhetoric. That's basically a fuckload of women being blamed for their discomfort which they're not even complaining about, while other women protect themselves, their families and expect us to 'take one for the team.'