To push DD to apply to Cambridge?

[AllieinWonderland]

So I'm relatively new to posting on mumsnet, but have been a long time lurker, so if I mix up the lingo a bit then apologies!
DSS1 got 9As 3As at GCSE, 4 high As at AS level, and is on track to exceed his AAA offer for Oxford.
Oldest DD achieved 13A*s 2As and a B at GCSE (the B in music - she had a panic attack in the exam and it was on a tape so she was unable to get the time back) and is looking on track for 5 high As at AS level in French, English lit, history, physics, and art. She is seemingly good at almost everything (triathlons at county level and has previously played and trained younger children in cricket and basketball, plays the cello, the xylophone, and the clarinet, won a local photography competition, always gets lead roles in an amateur dramatics group and solos in choir) yet has always struggled severely with self esteem, and focuses on the things she is bad at: sees her B in music as the end of her chance of going to good universities, can't bake or cook to save her life despite much encouragement and teaching, is awful at tidying (she is happy to do it but ends up gradually making more of a mess and gets flustered. Again, I've tried forms of 'teaching' and noting has worked). These latter two issues have led her to thinking she needs to stay at home for university and she is driving me mad by saying she'll go to the local university, which is really not a very good one at all, and the only others she'll consider are those with offers of "BBC" or below.
She has finally settled on studying English literature, and I took charge and booked her on open days at Warwick, Edinburgh, Cambridge, and Durham, and her school took the 'Oxbridge' candidates to Oxford for a trip. She hated Durham, didn't like Edinburgh, thought Oxford and Warwick were okay, but loved Cambridge.
In spite of this she is refusing to consider applying, says it's a waste of an application.
I don't want to push her, but I do want her to apply because she clearly loved it and is more than capable. All of her teachers have been saying it since before I can remember, and she reads almost constantly.
Aibu to try and change her mind?
Sorry for the lack of coherence here, my mind a bit of a mess!

Having taught at a highly academic school, I'm aware of the horrendous amount of pressure girls can put upon themselves. Many years ago, I was also one of those pupils and found the stress of getting the "right" A Level results far more stressful than three years at Cambridge.
I can understand how your daughter feels- the overwhelming stress of A Level can be all consuming. I completely agree with the advice re: a year out to give her a bit of a breather after results and to consider what she really wants.
I wish universities would encourage more teenagers to attend Open Days by themselves. If I had gone with my parents, I probably would have been self conscious about talking to other possible applicants. Too often, parents dominate the q&a sessions and tours.
Please feel free to pm me any questions your daughter may have and I hope she is ok. I've seen some teenagers suffer considerably at A Level and it is not worth her mental and physical health.

I went to UCLAN for my undergrad degree, it is relatively a small uni so if she is as disorganised and prone to panics as you say she won't get as lost as in one of the bigger institutions . Went to one of the larger red brick unusual for post grad and lived with some under grads- non of them were happy and there was quite a big drop out rate, or they moved to smaller unis as the support just wasn't there if they were struggling / panicking etc

That is useful to know lostoldlogin2, I will pass it on to her.

And to other posters, I believe I am probably too invested, but we have been through a lot together and as a result we have always been very close and open with one another - she tells me everything, and maybe it is too much but it's what works for us due to the situation.

I didn't mention before, but I went to Cambridge which I fear adds pressure to her. She thinks that because I got in, she should get in.
I actually hated it too, not because of the course - the demanding workload worked well for me, as we are alike in that way, but I hated the people and ended up hiding in churches to avoid them!

The insinuation that Bradford will not deliver 'highly intellectual conversation' is somewhat dickish OP.

There are bright, hungry, interested students in most unis. School grades are not necessarily a great indicator of ability or interest in subject. There is also more to life than highly intellectual conversations.

I hope your daughter finds somewhere she can be happy.

Birmingham. Manchester. Leeds. Very different and very challenging. Oxbridge is not for everyone as we both know OP!

I wonder if your DD would benefit from doing something she is not good at and practice coping with small failures and rejections.

My DD was lucky enough to go to Cambridge and I think she needed the inner toughness she'd gained from some of her less easy life experiences IYSWIM. She worked hard at school but, essentially, academic work was 'easy' for her.

She has had many panic attlacks as a result of traumatic experiences when she was younger.

I would not oppose her applying to smaller, less academic universities if she would look around them (to confirm she likes them). I simply want her to apply to universities she likes, in the hope that she will enjoy the experience.

OP - I have a lot of sympathy for you and your daughter. Most people at Oxbridge will not have done anywhere near 16 GCSEs - it simply isn't required. It sounds as though the school has pushed your daughter (and other girls) very hard, and has not been so good at developing her confidence.

I also completely understand your concern about your daughter going to a good university. The reality is that she is going to have many more options if she goes to a top 20 university. She will also be likely to have more contact time and be among students of a similar academic ability.

My suggestion would be not to put any pressure on her at all at this stage. I would probably suggest that she has a year out and doesn't even think about applying until after she gets her A level results. I also wonder if a year abroad might do wonders for her confidence - gap years sometimes get a bad press but actually it is a good opportunity for her to be away from any home pressure and to develop her own identity without the stress of university. It might also help her put things into perspective - she will meet people outside the bubble of her highly pressurised school and perhaps grow in confidence as she starts to value her personal qualities and not just her academic and other achievements.

You really need to take the pressure off. I think that applying to a lower ranked university would be a huge mistake for her, but I also think that going to Cambridge when she has such low self confidence (in a slightly worrying and dysmorphic way) could be very bad indeed at this stage.

The flustered tidying up is odd - she is a very neat, organised person, but once something is in a mess she struggles to tidy it. We've discussed shh it doesn't matter if things are messy multiple times, and then looked at ways to tidy 'strategically', but she just finds the whole experience stressful, and seems to see it as a representation of her failure as a person.

Pondering this as it sounds really hard for both of you.

I think if she can believe that a year off would be a good thing, it's well worth suggesting.

If she absolutely won't have it, well, she could apply as she is now, then if she does get handfuls of A*s, she could always turn down her previous choices and reapply; or go somewhere that she doesn't feel under pressure, do brilliantly and go anywhere she likes for a postgraduate course. She is not closing down all options by choosing to apply to less scary places now.

Let her choose. She will be fine. Even if she goes somewhere that you don't think is good enough she will make her mind up when she gets there and hopefully make a quick decision. I was at uni in the late 90's and people move even after term has started. Don't worry. Some things you can't know until you get there. There is so much more to life than your degree. She might even end up with a few degrees. Better to get your PhD from somewhere with prestige! It's better if she makes the decisions even if they don't seem good on the face of it. Then give her loads of support if she wants to change.
Good luck.

I'm exhausted just reading about her achievements

I think a gap year sounds like it might suit her and might take the pressure off her a little.

You do seem a bit like you are making decisions for her. With my DC I tried to keep my opinions to myself unless I was asked and even then I was careful to give 'gentle' opinions. They have to be the ones that choose where they go. It's their life and they have to own their own decisions even if you don't agree with them.

She is opposed to a gap year but I will mention it again. Previous mentions have been met with negativity as she doesn't want to 'be older' than everyone else, though as she's an August baby she wouldn't really be much older and would be younger than a lot!

I think she just wants to keep working and studying, because as crazy as it sounds she does find it therapeutic - and a therapist has told us this doesn't have to be a bad thing, so she channels it by making posters and pretty mind maps with colours and things.

I vote for Southampton. It's an RG university, and entry requirements for English currently range from ABB to AAB. It's a lovely campus in a relatively small city.

Admittedly though, I graduated from there 15 years ago and still can't cook or stay tidy - but I get by!

I have tried my best not to be over involved - I've only been to one open day with her! Yet she always asks my opinions, and we both struggle to sleep so end up waking up very early and often have 5am conversations about anything and everything, with this currently being a big 'everything' for her. (She's subsequently stopped feeding me the family gossip she gets from Facebook postings which I found a much more interesting conversation!) and she is continually asking my opinion, and gets upset when I try to avoid expressing it.

Really daft for someone who has panic attacks to do 16 GCSE's

Your DDs A level subjects are an unusual choice too. Is she doing AS in all of them? Will she drop one or two subjects.

It sounds a bit odd really.

I think you need to take a step right back and take the pressure off.

Let her take her A levels with the intention of a gap year and apply once she's got her results. She will feel a lot more confident with her exams in the bag, and you're just adding to the pressure.

I do find it odd though that you are organising her open days at uni. My parents weren't involved in that at all.

From what you say she would be OK academically at Cambridge, but I think fshe would struggle socially, just as you did. You're probably quite similar.

The academic challenge of Oxbridge can be overstated, you need to be studious rather than brilliant. Beyond going to a Russell Group uni, it really doesn't matter that much which one she goes to.

I also suggest that she might find the right balance at a Russell Group or red brick university. Two of my children went to universities of Leeds and Exeter which were full of Oxbridge refuseniks and those who had just missed getting in - in other words lots of seriously bright young things. English Lit is notoriously popular. One point I'd like to make to those who think YABU to try to dissuade her from applying to some of the lower ranked universities you mention is that she would be bored. At least two young people I know ended up at universities through clearing maybe 100 places below their ability range (too much 6th form partying) and found they had few people to fire off and be stimulated by. Rather than you rushing alienating DD by seeming to control her cant the school reason with her? I'm sure they'll encourage her to apply for a "best outcome" a "fall back" and the others in between. I also know of at least 2 dead cert Oxbridge candidates who chose to skip university completely and have survived. Does sound like a year out may be an option too, space and (even if self induced) pressure off.

Thank you! I will suggest Southampton to her, we hadn't actually discussed that one before - we've mostly looked at the universities other relatives have been to because we know about them already!

All you can do is give her options and support her. She is old enough to make her own decisions. As difficult as it is, I also think you need to let her own mistakes now. It may not be a bad life lesson if she goes to a lower ranked university, realises she has underestimated herself, and decides never to do that again. I also agree that a highly ranked degree from a university where she is happy is so much more important than a miserable few years and further shattering of her confidence.

Black label billshit.

OP I was pushed to try for Oxford.

It sounds as if your DD might be unsure of her reasons for not wanting to do it. It has to be her decision but I can see that fear of rejection us a lot different than my reasons for refusing, I just winder if she is saying anything to get out of it.

Essentially I thought if I got in, I would struggle to cope and I didn't want my life to be like that. 22 years later I'm glad I made that choice, I would not have coped.

I don't know if you see this but sometimes when I log in here I see an ad for a school that says "tomorrow I will be even better than today". It makes me shudder as it reminds me how much pressure I was under at school.

Some people do want to be that student but others definitely don't. If she doesn't want to go to Cambridge, she should not apply. If her school are like mine, they will apply a lot of pressure.

I think I'd feel clearer if she said something other than "waste of an application" but I wonder if it's just cover for "I don't want to go". and it's fine if she doesn't want to go.

I wonder whether a year out is a good thin?. She could chill out, maybe do a bit of cooking and regular dull stuff, get a stop gap job, then apply for uni. It would take all of the 'offer' and 'judgement' out of the equation.

(My back story: applied for medicine under a lot of pressure from school and parents and got offers. Withdrew application in July of A level year and was hugely unpopular. Got results in summer (would have met offer). Had a great gap year working and travelling and doing some drama stuff. Went to RG uni to study Genetics the following year - brilliant and exciting course. Unfortunately looked down upon by ex-school and Dad as 'second best' but it was really not. I have a PhD, spent several years in academia, now in biotech discovering and developing new cancer therapies).

I do think that once you get out of school with all its tests and ranking and exams, life is a lot better.

*bullshit