To push DD to apply to Cambridge?

[AllieinWonderland]

So I'm relatively new to posting on mumsnet, but have been a long time lurker, so if I mix up the lingo a bit then apologies!
DSS1 got 9As 3As at GCSE, 4 high As at AS level, and is on track to exceed his AAA offer for Oxford.
Oldest DD achieved 13A*s 2As and a B at GCSE (the B in music - she had a panic attack in the exam and it was on a tape so she was unable to get the time back) and is looking on track for 5 high As at AS level in French, English lit, history, physics, and art. She is seemingly good at almost everything (triathlons at county level and has previously played and trained younger children in cricket and basketball, plays the cello, the xylophone, and the clarinet, won a local photography competition, always gets lead roles in an amateur dramatics group and solos in choir) yet has always struggled severely with self esteem, and focuses on the things she is bad at: sees her B in music as the end of her chance of going to good universities, can't bake or cook to save her life despite much encouragement and teaching, is awful at tidying (she is happy to do it but ends up gradually making more of a mess and gets flustered. Again, I've tried forms of 'teaching' and noting has worked). These latter two issues have led her to thinking she needs to stay at home for university and she is driving me mad by saying she'll go to the local university, which is really not a very good one at all, and the only others she'll consider are those with offers of "BBC" or below.
She has finally settled on studying English literature, and I took charge and booked her on open days at Warwick, Edinburgh, Cambridge, and Durham, and her school took the 'Oxbridge' candidates to Oxford for a trip. She hated Durham, didn't like Edinburgh, thought Oxford and Warwick were okay, but loved Cambridge.
In spite of this she is refusing to consider applying, says it's a waste of an application.
I don't want to push her, but I do want her to apply because she clearly loved it and is more than capable. All of her teachers have been saying it since before I can remember, and she reads almost constantly.
Aibu to try and change her mind?
Sorry for the lack of coherence here, my mind a bit of a mess!

I agree with Jake, I was also going to suggest you both have counselling.

I'm used to Tiger moms and academic pressure doesn't phase me, but the level of anxiety and tightly coiled stress coming through your posts is concerning.

Sorry, Allie, it's clear that the two of you have had a tough time of it. She is borderline coping/not coping.

The choice seems to be to let her make a decision which is the non-risk option but doesn't fulfil her potential or to push her to fulfil her potential at the risk of her not being able to cope.

My inclination would be to go with the former, but I completely understand all your concerns about that: that she will regret the decision fairly soon, that she will feel a failure compared to her peers going on to more prestigious universities etc.

When you are 18 or the parent of an 18 year old, these decisions can feel so crucial. But life is long, second and third and fourth chances are available, people sometimes take a while to find their path, decisions made at 18 don't irrevocably determine the rest of your life.

Most of all, it is possible to face down middle class parents who live vicariously through their children, who crow about their children who got into Oxbridge, the City, the sports team or the school orchestra and to come out 20, 30 years later with children who are happy and successful in whatever field they eventually went for, with good relationships and who still come and visit you in your dotage.

Do mall of your kids and step kids do as many activities. It must be very tiring.

How about stop throwing things into the mix? She's clearly bright enough to find out about them herself. I'd completely back off regarding uni and only discuss it when she raises it.

She sounds like the most perfect candidate for a gap year I've ever heard of. Let her apply wherever and get her a levels out of the way. It doesn't commit her to going to uni that year. She can always withdraw and reapply later if she changes her mind about where she wants to go, or even go through clearing. Even Russell group unis don't always fill their courses.

Her father was very physicsally and emotionally abusive towards me, and later towards her, and he eventually killed himself, with her being the one who found him.

I'm really sorry to hear it. Now everything makes sense.

Your daughter is clearly dealing with massive trauma. I'd suggest tackling that is far more important than what uni she goes to. And I'm not quite sure why you're so preoccupied with that.

Is she getting psychotherapeutic support?

At the end of the day, she spent what a day/two days at Cambridge?

Maybe go back for another visit and see if she still likes it? I.e baby steps.

But also, do broaden your horizons rather search tot other countries.

Sorry to hear about what happened with her dad.

Please let her do what she feels comfortable doing, or encourage her to take a gap year after her A Levels to allow herself to take a break and make the best decision for her.

A Levels are bloody hard - I went to a grammar school much like the one you're describing, luckily I had very laid back parents so the pressure didn't get to me as much as others. I don't want to scare you but by the end of the two years, a huge number of the students had MH issues - one of my closest friends tried to and almost succeeded in killing themselves.

Nothing is worth that level of stress on a child - she will be happy and successful wherever she chooses to go to university; step back and let her decide.

I think a low key gap year that builds her confidence and resilience and practical skills sounds the best thing. But I think you need to let her do the work of figuring out what it would take for her to build those things.

I wouldn't automatically rule out Cambridge. A small Oxbridge college can be a very close-knit, stimulating, supportive experience imo, although Oxford has more small colleges than Cambridge iirc.

However I think you really need to look very hard at her anxiety, panic and complete lack of self esteem. Anxiety and panic is one of the most treatable MH conditions - why isn't whatever treatment she has been having since Y8 working? Could you look at other options for treatment?

Her sense of self seems unusually fragile and she seems to be extremely hard on herself.

We are both in art therapy, and she has a counsellor - and has tried CBT and other forms of therapy, finding art therapy the one most beneficial.

I also think she should take a gap year, and she did briefly look at a programme in Nepal but wrote it off and concluded she didn't want to leave education.

I don't want to push her in the sense that I want to push her against her will - I want to push her to do something she is telling me she wants, and something she certainly seems to want.

And she is simply closing off all options except for a degree in 'peace studies' from Bradford University, when she wants to do a degree in English Literature, and likes Cambridge, and Warwick universities.

If she does fancy a gap year she could always do a Cambridge summer school during it. For example www.ice.cam.ac.uk/international-summer-schools/programmes/literature
which would give her a taster of Cambridge (although with mainly adults rather than her own age group) but also serve very well for personal statement etc. for any other uni.

Has she seen the virtual classroom for prospective undergraduate applicants?
www.english.cam.ac.uk/classroom/

I went to Cambridge and am the messiest person I know. Most colleges have "bedders" who are cleaners that look after you to varying degrees. My college didn't, so my room never got cleaned during term time because I didn't do it. Not a big deal really if she doesn't mind!

It's also extremely easy to get by without having to cook for oneself, particularly at colleges where all accommodation is onsite. Noone I knew cooked for themselves on a regular basis apart from me!

I had a difficult time there mainly because of issues at home, but once they had cleared up I loved it and stayed for postgraduate study. Having Cambridge degrees on my CV has definitely opened doors, and the connections that I made there have certainly been extremely beneficial. It's not for everyone (my brother didn't apply despite having the grades) but if there's a small chance she'd enjoy it, then surely it's worth a bash. I didn't think I'd get in which is probably why my interviews went so well!

Let her have a gap year, it was the best thing for me, and it means she can relax and take HER time to sort out where and what next! A gap year will make huge difference to her feelings, confidence and well being, and to yours as well. Good luck

Stop the 5am conversations. I'm sure she's starting them but it's not healthy. You're the adult you need to tell her to go to bed.

At a more reasonable time ask her what is the worst thing she can imagine happening from applying and not getting in. Imagining if may mean she realises it's not so bad after all.

I think a year off would do her no harm at all. Her school sounds ridiculous - they shouldn't have agreed to the 16 GCSEs.

Durham grad here- I had a gap year and am a September child so I was 20 when I started. I definitely needed the gap year to decompress a bit after the stress of GCSE's and A-levels- and I didn't do anything like the crazy amounts of subjects your DD has done! But I absolutely loved Durham. Lots of posh people but also lots of 'regular' people. My college was a good mix of ex-public school kids and people like me- working class upbringing, state school or (as in my case) private school on scholarship or assisted place. It wasn't snobby and didn't have the crazy pressure that my friends who went to Oxbridge told horror stories about. The collegiate structure means that the pastoral staff know you by name, but the courses are inclusive so you study with people from other colleges so it's a good mix. I graduated 8 years ago and I still miss it!

I'm so sorry - only just seen the update about her father.

I don't want to push her in the sense that I want to push her against her will - I want to push her to do something she is telling me she wants, and something she certainly seems to want.

That's not relevant. You're still pushing someone who's already in a fragile state. Leave her be. She'll come to the right decision herself. And it might not be the one you think is right for her.

OP I'm so sorry to hear about your late husband and his treatment of you- your DDs panic attacks make sense now.

I think it would be far better to ensure that she is mentally well prior to deciding what university to go to. I think the gap year sounds like a god idea, give her the rest she quite clearly needs.

You might find Candia McWilliam's book 'What to Look for in Winter' of interest. She went to Cambridge herself, always struggled with very low self esteem, her mother committed suicide when she was young (she too found her).

Allie I know you think you are doing what think is best, but to put no finer point on it... step the fuck back!

The reason she is struggling to make a decision and feels overwhelmed is because she doesn't have any experience of making significant decisions for herself and doesn't have the skills to do so now.

But that is the relationship we have and the one she, and I both want.

Is it realy what she wants or needs? Really?

If you have no experience of making these choices it is comforting and familiar to have someone making it for you and directing you, because it feels scary to do things on your own.

From what you've written she needs the freedom to fuck up. She doesn't need 'teaching' or coaching she needs to make some bloody decisions for herself over comparatively trivial things and if she arses them up (which she will, because we all do) she'll learn it isn't the end of the world and she can learn something from it.

I would like her to take a gap year - there is nothing I would like more! It is simply something she is refusing to entertain, along with a lot of other options.

The school did advise against the 16 GCSEs, as did I and her friends, and her cousins. They merely facilitated it, did not encourage it.

I took charge

but it isn't your life or your choice.

I agree with this time 100 per cent. Please back off and let her make the decisions about HER future.

Is at as simple as she is plumping for "Peace Studies" (despite declaring she wants to do Eng Lit) because she is trying to tell herself to get some peace? Sometimes you tell yourself the things it is difficult for yourself to hear in the most obvious ways. She wants to have/find peace.

Maybe even a gap year without a headline grabbing, CV building focus/project.

The school did advise against the 16 GCSEs, as did I and her friends, and her cousins. They merely facilitated it, did not encourage it.

I find it surprising that any school would facilitate a student doing 16 GCSEs unless there was significant pressure coming from home. They normally just tell the student no and that's that. How did they manage to fit them all into the timetable? It sounds like she'd have needed a time turner.

And she is simply closing off all options except for a degree in 'peace studies' from Bradford University, when she wants to do a degree in English Literature, and likes Cambridge, and Warwick universities

That's why it's important to back off and defer application. At the moment her anxiety and lack of confidence is determining her choices.

Once she has her results she won't be driven so much by fear.

except for a degree in 'peace studies' from Bradford University

What's with the speech marks, OP? You seem to have something of a superiority complex

Why are you watching tv at 5am. Go to bed, rest and stop talking to her about this until she's back at school.