To push DD to apply to Cambridge?

[AllieinWonderland]

So I'm relatively new to posting on mumsnet, but have been a long time lurker, so if I mix up the lingo a bit then apologies!
DSS1 got 9As 3As at GCSE, 4 high As at AS level, and is on track to exceed his AAA offer for Oxford.
Oldest DD achieved 13A*s 2As and a B at GCSE (the B in music - she had a panic attack in the exam and it was on a tape so she was unable to get the time back) and is looking on track for 5 high As at AS level in French, English lit, history, physics, and art. She is seemingly good at almost everything (triathlons at county level and has previously played and trained younger children in cricket and basketball, plays the cello, the xylophone, and the clarinet, won a local photography competition, always gets lead roles in an amateur dramatics group and solos in choir) yet has always struggled severely with self esteem, and focuses on the things she is bad at: sees her B in music as the end of her chance of going to good universities, can't bake or cook to save her life despite much encouragement and teaching, is awful at tidying (she is happy to do it but ends up gradually making more of a mess and gets flustered. Again, I've tried forms of 'teaching' and noting has worked). These latter two issues have led her to thinking she needs to stay at home for university and she is driving me mad by saying she'll go to the local university, which is really not a very good one at all, and the only others she'll consider are those with offers of "BBC" or below.
She has finally settled on studying English literature, and I took charge and booked her on open days at Warwick, Edinburgh, Cambridge, and Durham, and her school took the 'Oxbridge' candidates to Oxford for a trip. She hated Durham, didn't like Edinburgh, thought Oxford and Warwick were okay, but loved Cambridge.
In spite of this she is refusing to consider applying, says it's a waste of an application.
I don't want to push her, but I do want her to apply because she clearly loved it and is more than capable. All of her teachers have been saying it since before I can remember, and she reads almost constantly.
Aibu to try and change her mind?
Sorry for the lack of coherence here, my mind a bit of a mess!

Thank you for the reasonable response!

What's constitutes as a 'reasonable response'?

Cambridge English graduate here. I hated it. It's not the right place for your DD if she lacks confidence as it is an intense course that takes no prisoners. My brother went to a 'gentler' (but still very good) university and came out with the top starred first in his subject. I wouldn't advise that anyone apply to Cambridge unless they are sure it is the right place for them. Good on your DD for sticking to her guns.

What does she want to do?

You really need to let her take the lead with this. It's her life. It's not all about the prestige of the university; English is such a diverse subject that the courses will differ massively.

I personally wasn't as academically accomplished as your daughter but I hated the look of the courses at a lot of the "better" universities. I wanted more diversity, less rigidity.

Could she possibly take some time out after her A-Levels? It's such a stressful time.

(Don't know where the rogue ''s' came from)

It does sound as if she has a bit of a self-esteem issue, if I'm honest. She has excellent grades and does seem to be aiming a bit low, university-wise.

However, I do think you should take this into account. The competitive nature of the top universities aren't for everyone. Ease off the pressure, stop organising open days, and leave her to it. If it came down to it, a gap year could be an excellent decision. A year to relax (academically), step back, and really look at her options. Plus, applying with her achieved grades may boost her confidence.

Just as an aside, if she thought Oxford was bubble-like, she'll hate St Andrews. So you might as well save yourself a journey there.

I went to Cambridge at age 17. Was unjeri a lot of pressure to do so. Hated it. Got mixed up with a nasty boyfriend who was abusive. No one noticed that the youngest person in the college was being hurt. Dropped out at the end of my second term. Was told I would have to do the application process again if I changed my mind but not asked why I was dropping out of a highly competitive degree course and if there was anything they could do to help. This was 14 years ago by the way....not the 1950s. None of that is necessarily relevant I guess. But it's different to the "oooh it set me up for life" story you probably heatleave normally
I went to a different RG university afterwards but very jaded and cynical about the whole university thing because I had been informed that Oxbridge was streets ahead of anywhere else. I got a third because I didn't care any more and I was burnt out by the age of 18. Think about the risk of burn out because it's real. Don't pressurise her. It won't work.

She sounds like an ideal candidate for a gap year. Something she really wants to do. Otherwise it's likely she'll have a false start at uni because she's picked the wrong one, or the wrong course, and she'll drop out. Having to decide about "the rest of your life" is tons of pressure in itself.

If you are worried about her messing up her future, I can say this: I have started three degrees, was a Cambridge applicant in my younger years but had a spectacular mental breakdown and was hospitalised, and I still managed to pull it together in the end and become a doctor. It's never too late to try again. Failure is its own valuable lesson. If you're good at everything, being bad at something is a skill to learn.

I don't think going to Cambridge would help her self esteem. When I came up I went from being an academic success at school to finding that there were an awful lot of people out there with bigger brains than mine.

Cambridge is full of very confident students. Some arrogant. Socially it is competitive.

I was lucky and made some lovely friends but I would not push anyone to apply.

She might have a really fantastic experience at the Uni she chooses. She might build her confidence and independence which will be far more important for her future than academic grades. The world is full of people like me who did very well academically but lack the confidence to do much with it.

I applied to Cambridge to read Engineering because my 6th form pushed me into it. I hated it when I went for the interview, and loved Bristol. I ended up rejecting the Cambridge offer and going to Bristol (I met the grades for Cambridge so I could have goneMum said absolutely nothing during the whole process except to tell me to do what made me happy. About 20 years later she asked me if I'd ever regretted turning it down - of all the things I've done, it's one of the ones I regret least. Please tell her to make up her own mind and do what makes her happy. I ended up with a 1st from Bristol, and have had an amazingly varied and successful career. I firmly believe I wouldn't have done so had I gone to Cambridge

Sorry about typos....on phone!

lost

In the gentlest terms, can I suggest you just back off completely.

Let her work where she wants. Let her choose what she's going to do and where she's going to study, if anywhere.

My 18 year old has just finished her A levels and is burned out, physically and emotionally. She has chosen her own university and we all drove over 5 hours so she could attend the open day. I haven't even set foot in the place, she has done it all herself. She won't start until February next year and in the meantime she's working part time, going out with friends, having fun, winding down and just generally having some much needed time out.

You sound incredibly overinvested in her life. Yes, she's your child but she's also a young adult who needs to make choices that make her happy, not you. One of my DD's friends has parents who are teacher, both of them have controlled her life to such an extent that she is now going right off the rails. Her older brother has gone to university (probably to escape the control fest going on at home) and my DD says he's spent the first year just going out and partying, getting drunk and hardly studying because he was quite frankly, sick of studying. There was no option for him to have some wind down time at home, his parents just never let up, pushing him and pushing him. Their DD is going to go exactly the same way.

Just back off. Let her make choices on her own. Let her choose her life path and stop telling her what to do, stop making decisions for her and if her self confidence is that low (surprising considering her exam results) then get her some help. Lacking in confidence despite such amazing achievements suggests she's still trying to be the person you want her to be and finds herself lacking.

Poor girl.

lostoldlogin - that is so sad to hear. Your post brought a tear to my eye as it reminded me how utterly crap my college was when anything went wrong.

Tricky one. I know you are all saying OP is piling on the pressure but it is perfectly possible that the school or even DD herself is doing this. I was a (much much more modestly) well achieving student, similarly retiring and lacking self belief, always striving for perfection despite parents never ever pressuring me, and I forced myself to take on much more that I should have. I was also not particularly well organised/aware of what was going on around me and did need prompting/helping to set up open days - I don't see the problem in OP doing this for DD. Yes it smacks of helicoptering but some teens do need more guidance than others.

But agree with PPs that Oxbridge would be godawful for someone lacking confidence - and it's so work focused that she wouldn't have time for half as much of the extracurricular stuff which is so much of what university is about.

Sympathies for OP who presumably sees a girl who is very bright and does not want her self esteem issues to cause her to lose out on the opportunities a good university would have to offer.

I do think the idea of taking a year out is very wise - do something to build her independence. Maybe postpone applications for a year if that's possible? I don't know how ucas works nowadays. You might find that once her horizons have been broadened after a year out that she naturally wants to spread her wings a bit and go to uni kfurther afield?

I've seen too many fragile types get broken by Oxbridge and end up struggling with their mental health.

I'd only advise it for the really ebullient types. Your DD doesn't sound like a good fit.

OP, uni is too important an experience to not enjoy. Academic achievement is a very small part of life. Reel your neck in and let her make up her own mind. York is fabulous for English. Or what about Trinity in Dublin? Some of the same Oxbridge atmosphere, nothing like the pressure.

Def too much going on.
It baffles me why any school would deem it necessary to do so many GCSEs. Adding unnecessary pressure. This is good for the school ratings, more so than for the student's well being.

My ds was being pressured by his school to apply to Oxford. He didn't want to as we were an 'ordinary' family but with limited income and he felt he'd be out of place. He was also youngest in his school year.

This caused some aggro from bil who felt ds was missing a golden opportunity. We stood ground and supported our ds wishes.

He went to our local uni, moving out to house share and enjoy student life in his second year.

He finished first in his final year of 42 students. Went on to do his 3 year PhD. And then moved away, having gained maturity.

One of his sixth form peers had also been encouraged to apply to Oxford and was accepted. He fatally overdosed in second year.

Not everyone is mature enough

I think you are being given a very hard time by some posters.

I can imagine how hard it is seeing your dd being so insecure in her abilities when she is clearly very able. Whilst it is her choice, I think one possible risk that she will not fit in at a lower tariff uni and make like-minded friends if she is going to get much higher grades than required. If she is disparaging of the lecturers at places like Durham why does she think they will be better at other unis.

I would encourage her to properly research the various courses herself. If she genuinely finds a course that she loves the sound of, that is fine and the status of the university is immaterial but it doesn't like this is what is going on.

I would agree with those who have suggested a gap year do applying with achieved grades. That sounds like a much better plan if she doesn't feel confident about applying to good unis at the moment. But I leave you with this quote:
"Just because it’s not some name-brand, famous, fancy school doesn’t mean that you’re not going to get a great education there.”

Obama to his daughter.

OP have you read the book How to Talk So Kids Will Listen & Listen So Kids Will Talk? I think it might help here.

Telling your DD that it doesn't matter if Cambridge reject her isn't going to make her feel any different - a bit like "never in the history of calming down has anyone actually calmed down by being told to calm down".

Give her some time as well. Sounds a bit like you are panicking on her behalf... Also - very hard to do (and very easy for me to say when mine are both under 5) but trust her too. Ask if she needs your help. If she does then great, if she doesn't then tell her you trust her to make a good decision (and not in a passive-aggressive way - be genuine).

Gap year volunteering at the British library sounds the way to go.

Then apply to uni when she knows her grades and she will be accepted immediately rather than the stress of waiting it out.

You said that she 'settled on English Literature' that makes me wonder whether she can demonstrate the passion and depth of reading/curiosity necessary to get through a Cambridge interview. Though her English teachers should be able to tell.

I think that there is a mid-ground between the universities you have suggested and the ones she has. And some of them would be in the same cities as the ones she suggested - Leeds and Bath spring to mind, though I've no idea what they are like for English Literature.

Perhaps she could retain one or two from her list as insurance, but pick some more aspirational ones (for her ability) as well.

Can she identify the features of the ones she has chosen that she particularly liked? Then look for similar ones e.g, she prefers a campus university with the option to study Chaucer in year 1 and have years 1 & 2 exam results go towards her final degree.

Throughout the OP and the thread, the one thing I see is that your DD is seemingly petrified of failure and rejection.

Maybe a discussion as to why she has this irrational fear and mentioning that some of the most successful people's failures behind them.

As PP has said, nothing ventured, nothing gained, and the cliched saying that don't regret the things you did do, but the things you didn't. If she really likes Cambridge, then apply at least if she applies, she won't spend her life wondering what if.

By the way..... I am not a fragile type. I am hard as fucking nails and always have been.
Another Cambridge story for you...since your daughter doesn't like drinking etc....me neither....I was very sporty and never likedid the taste of alcohol
In Cambridge freshers week I was heavily pressured to drink and refused
I was also heavily pressured to take part in games involving passing an ice cube mouth to mouth boy girl boy girl and forfeits were being bandied about like peeling a banana from between a male student's legs with your mouth.....I refused
Oh. One other thing
One of my professors split the supervision group of 9 into male and female. He gave the men wine and nibbles during supervisions and they were treated VERY differently
Again. Early 2000s. Not 1950s. There is a VERY strong alcohol culture there.

I think that you need to be concerned about the panic attack. Has this happened more than once? Also something about getting flustered about tidying up?

I would be worried that she would not be able to cope with the high pressure, high achievement culture of a very academic university without the emotional and life skills support of home. I know several bright youngsters who sound just like her who dropped out of university because they couldn't cope mentally and emotionally even though they were academically strong.

I think PP's suggestions of a year out is a really good idea - a year off the academic treadmill, away from all those other shiny young people against which she is measuring herself, and a chance for her to really think about what she wants to do. You shouldn't have stopped her doing the British Library thing - that would have been a wonderful experience for her. Maybe she can find something similar to do as a gap year.