to think my niece is more than just sensitive?

[mendimoo]

My brother, his wife and their 5 year old DD have been staying nearby and visiting for the past week. DN is home educated by SIL and I haven't seen her since she was three until this week because they've been living abroad. Both DB and SIL describe DN as 'sensitive' and they seem to go to great lengths to avoid upsetting her. For example - she can never be asked to do anything immediately, under any circumstances, or she refuses, screams, shouts and cries. She always has to be given notice and told of at least two things that are going to happen first. I.e. I'm going to brush my hair and go to the toilet, then we need to put your shoes on.

If she can't find something, she'll say she can't find it, ask where it is but if someone tells her she absolutely dissolves into hysteria. SIL has to say 'perhaps it could be on the bed/in your bag/in your drawer' even if she can clearly see exactly where it is.

Today we were in a lift and she was running her finger up and down the line of the doors in the middle. A lady told her to mind her fingers when the doors open and DN was whimpering, on the brink of tears, looking absolutely furious and refused to speak to anyone for over half hour. Similarly, the other day she tripped but I caught her before she fell and she behaved as though I'd shoved her in front of a passing car. Earlier in the week when she did actually fall over and had a tiny graze, she was completely hysterical for over an hour and a half.

If people don't talk to her in the 'right' way she completely shuts down and DB and SIL spend a great deal of time and energy trying to coax her back to equilibrium. I have my own children and have worked with children my whole career and I appreciate some are more sensitive than others but this seems extreme to me. I worry that SIL is stuck homeschooling because she knows DN wouldn't cope at school and I want to support her but when I broached it I was told she's 'just sensitive' and will grow out of it.

With the hands over her ears OP that's very common for children that are autistic.Ear defenders made all the difference for our DD when she was younger,before we bought those we couldn't even go into a shop with our DD because of noise because she just couldn't cope with it bless her.

She's 8 now nearly 9 and hasn't needed them for nearly 3 years.

A friend of our older DD13 wore ear defenders at primary school(a mainstreem school)all the way through,he wore them for a few months at secondary school as well(he's a year below our DD)and now he doesn't use them anymore.

Sorry ment to say with the not taking the party bag,that's more than likely because your niece had played out in her mind what would happen when she asked for the party bag ie her Mum would give it to her.

Lots of people that are autistic also live with OCD,the OCD is what would cause upsets(with the party bag)when something isn't done exactly the way your DNiece had thought it would be,it causes stress and anxiety.I wouldn't be surprised if you DNiece has felt sick,been sick,complained of a tummy ache or not wanted to eat before when something(that we would see as a non issue)like this has happened before.

It's a really horrible way for such young children to feel bless them,they really do need all the support and understanding possible.

I apologise. Clearly a case of knowing a little being a dangerous thing, so I apologise unreservedly and will keep my lip buckled in future, or until I learn enough to be able to talk authoritatively.

Please ignore what I said, or accept that I am sorry and forgive me.

Hi op apologies has haven't rtft but have skimmed through, agree with the general consensus that your dn has more going on than just being 'sensitive' it might be worth reading up on on sensory processing disorder.

My dd was hard work age 5yo and I put it all down to her just being sensitive and highly strung, it turns out she actually has sensory processing difficulties with just about everything. Just knowing that and educating myself has made a massive difference to how I parent and think about dds behaviour.

Some of your dns behaviours sound very much like she is struggling from a sensory perspective.

Gosh, having read this thread I see so much of DD (and I) in PDA. Have any of you good folk with experience of pda and reading recommendations to look into it further?

It might or might not be autism, it will take specialist diagnosis rather than mumsnet opinion. The need to know what is happening next and not liking big social groups, disliking loud noises and taking everything to heart are classic signs of being a highly sensitive child as well as autism and it is not incommon for this to be initially confused It's estimated about 10%of the population of all species have a highly sensitive personality type. There would need to be many other factors in place for an ASD diagnosis. Id be looking for additional red flags such as lack of eye contact, rigid and unimaginative play. You could try getting a book called the highly sensitive child and give it to your BIL/sister and say you saw this in a book shop and thought it sounded just like your DN. There seems an over eagerness to shout ASD in some circles these days where children don't fit the developmental norm. I highly suspect you family are worried about ASD with some of the personality traits (assisted by the power of google) and maybe need tgeir minds put at rest that all will be ok whatever the outcome, ASD or not before they are gentally encouraged to seek help

PolterGoose, thanks. I actually used to work with autistic people! I had studied autism a lot, but that was a long time ago and things have clearly moved on very very far, which is a great thing. It is really, really good to know that we have so much more knowledge and can therefore help more people, when they are even younger, and in better more effective ways.

(I do get a bit disgruntled on mn when almost any sort of bad behaviour is so easily put down to ASD as if that is the only reason there could possibly be for a child to behave badly. It devalues those who actually are on the spectrum and their real difficulties. That's another thread. Sorry for derailing a bit.)

Just wanted to say a thank you to the OP and contributors for this thread. I manage to try a few of the intervention ideas on here with DD at the weekend and they were all very successful!

This is convincing me that we should go for a DX because there must be more of this gold waiting out there to be found!

Memoires the posters sharing helpful adice with you are often the ones to mention ASD red flags wit regards to behaviour. As you can see people have a wealth of knowledge here and it would be a shame to dismiss it as people mentioning ASD for any bad behaviour. I hope you might rethink that attitude a wee bit now after talking to people on this thread.

I have never seen anyone mention ASD in the context of "bad" behaviour who doesn't know what they are talking about and indeed recognise the situation from their own lives.

That goes for other poster who said there is "over eagerness to shout ASD". That belittles the experience many posters have here (and I am rarely one to suggest any dX on here but I can see why people do..it isn't over eagerness )

I hope this thread gets your niece the understanding and support she deserves

Fanjo, I have seen it happen online, especially when errant dh's are being discussed. But I do take your point that people here do know what they're talking about and that I don't. I shall read and learn with pleasure, so thank you to all for educating me, and I'm sorry that I've added to the burden. I shall try to do better now.

Yes ive seen it occasionally about DHs when it's a bit far fetched. But not as often as people are accused of doing it for no reason when they actually do know their stuff, iyswim :)

DD1 has some elements of this but I put it down to being HSP and suffering from anxiety, which is how I deal with it. I think I have some of those elements myself. She is fine socially (better than I was at a young age) and does very well at school. It really helped to read stuff about HSP when she was small. At 11 she is absolutely lovely but my parents can become alarmed by her emotional outbursts when things get too much- I have a time persuading them that she is suffering from anxiety and not being naughty. Not that she never does anything wrong but on the whole she pushes herself to be "good" in all aspects of life and usually needs reminding to take a step back rather than of something she could have done better. My mum is a bit perfectionist and sensitive as well and is kind of starting to understand.

It might or might not be autism, it will take specialist diagnosis rather than mumsnet opinion

Well of course it does

But if nobody ever says 'you know some of those behaviours are quite suggestive', a big percentage of families would struggle on alone and never seek a developmental assessment, or not for several more years at least. Not everybody reacts to problems by reading extensively.

The idea that MN posts are intended as a substitute for professional advice is getting a bit tired now, TBH.

The idea that MN posts are intended as a substitute for professional advice is getting a bit tired now, TBH.

No shit.

I do get a bit disgruntled on mn when almost any sort of bad behaviour is so easily put down to ASD as if that is the only reason there could possibly be for a child to behave badly. It devalues those who actually are on the spectrum and their real difficulties. That's another thread. Sorry for derailing a bit.)

The thing is, that the child in the OP does NOT sound badly behaved. She sounds like a small person who is scared and battling to maintain control. Hence those very specific behaviours (flags really) about the way things have to be phrased etc.

That's where you get the divide; between readers for whom those very specific details leap out and readers who think it just sounds like 'naughtiness'.

I do get a bit disgruntled on mn when almost any sort of bad behaviour is so easily put down to ASD
It wasn't bad behaviour though. The description was of a child who is unable to cope with situations that most children that age can cope with.
Autism isn't an excuse for bad behaviour - it is an explanation as to why a person behaves differently or needs more support than others.

MN posters aren't trying to diagnose, just point out that the behaviours described from both the child and the parent, are possible indicators of autism. Until someone points this out, most people don't know - they just assume the child is being naughty or spoilt and the parents are pandering or over-indulging.

Id be looking for additional red flags such as lack of eye contact

AAARRRGGGHHHHHHHHHHHH

I am astounded at the prejudicial and totally wrong crap being spouted yet again about ASD and its co-morbids on this thread.

Those of us with kids on the spectrum are trying to advise the OP that persuading her DN's parents to pursue a dx could be a good idea because we recognise parts of our own kids' behaviour in her description and are extremely aware of what parenting a child like theirs entails
a) at home and
b) in the outside world as mirrored in this thread, whilst dealing with relatives in denial, other parents and maybe worst of all "professionals" who know nothing about SN but really should, giving the wrong advice and/or criticism.

For those of you who are not aware of how SN presents, please listen and learn from people who do, rather than leaping in with judgement and NT 'solutions'.

^^YY blankmind

The not speaking and staring through people sounds like social anxiety and possibly selective mutism; that might or might not be part of an autism spectrum condition. She is clearly hypersensitive in a number of areas too. It does sound like she needs some help. I am a bit worried about how much they are adapting to her; this is ok to a certain extent but all children need help and support to improve their skills (including coping skills), including autistic children. Temple Grandin (famous autistic woman) recently published a book called, Iirc, 'The Gentle push' about this need to provide gentle challenge to help a child's resilience. I can give a simplified example from a family I know. Their child found riding on a bus very stressful and would have meltdowns each time. Many parents would then stop ever riding on the bus. This family took to riding on the bus much more frequently, every day, but only for short journeys. Over the space of a couple of weeks their child began tolerating then bring completely unfazed by going on the bus. They then introduced longer journeys. A year or two later she has no issues with going on the bus at all. If they had reacted by avoiding bus journeys to avoid her distress, she would still be unable to travel that way. If you see what I mean!

/head desk
/face palm
This is a child who is probably scared, anxious, worried, possibly has sensory difficulties, may feel panic at transitions, may not understand a lot of what is going on around her, life's events may be fractured, displaced, confusing, her neurology may drive her to seek sameness and she may be constantly seeking central cohesion.

She may be living in constant terror of NORMAL LIFE. Her parents may be saving her by adapting to her. She probably doesn't need "pushing" - pushing is being done by taking her to children's parties (they are an onslaught of activity, noise, expectations, stress, chaos), she is probably being PUSHED by the activities of normal life. She needs supports to mediate the stressors that she is undergoing. She needs help to be successful in managing everyday activities - that is how she needs to be pushed, pushed into succeeding, over and over, not pushed beyond what she is capable developmentally of doing.

Calm down Hawkingsmead. I am not suggesting that these parents need to immediately push this child in every way; however there IS evidence that the principle of gentle challenge is important in anxiety; obviously this is taken very slowly and gradually and starts where the child is. The trouble with anxiety is the more you avoid stuff, the scarier that stuff seems. Clearly you don't assault the senses all at once and a children's party is exactly the kind of scenario that is too much too soon. But conversely avoiding everything that might upset a child isn't helpful either. There is no need to face palm, I have autistic kids and am also a specialist psychologist with a long record of helping families.
I think Temple Grandin probably knows what she is talking about, no?