to think my niece is more than just sensitive?

[mendimoo]

My brother, his wife and their 5 year old DD have been staying nearby and visiting for the past week. DN is home educated by SIL and I haven't seen her since she was three until this week because they've been living abroad. Both DB and SIL describe DN as 'sensitive' and they seem to go to great lengths to avoid upsetting her. For example - she can never be asked to do anything immediately, under any circumstances, or she refuses, screams, shouts and cries. She always has to be given notice and told of at least two things that are going to happen first. I.e. I'm going to brush my hair and go to the toilet, then we need to put your shoes on.

If she can't find something, she'll say she can't find it, ask where it is but if someone tells her she absolutely dissolves into hysteria. SIL has to say 'perhaps it could be on the bed/in your bag/in your drawer' even if she can clearly see exactly where it is.

Today we were in a lift and she was running her finger up and down the line of the doors in the middle. A lady told her to mind her fingers when the doors open and DN was whimpering, on the brink of tears, looking absolutely furious and refused to speak to anyone for over half hour. Similarly, the other day she tripped but I caught her before she fell and she behaved as though I'd shoved her in front of a passing car. Earlier in the week when she did actually fall over and had a tiny graze, she was completely hysterical for over an hour and a half.

If people don't talk to her in the 'right' way she completely shuts down and DB and SIL spend a great deal of time and energy trying to coax her back to equilibrium. I have my own children and have worked with children my whole career and I appreciate some are more sensitive than others but this seems extreme to me. I worry that SIL is stuck homeschooling because she knows DN wouldn't cope at school and I want to support her but when I broached it I was told she's 'just sensitive' and will grow out of it.

""I often think that people rush to an assumption of autism simply as it's the one they have heard of. It's almost a default. And it's a lazy assumption.""

I partly think this, only because my eldest (now 31) and my youngest (18) have SEN and I've been around children with different diagnosis's and there are a few conditions that could be causing these traits/behaviours.

A psychologist wouldn't assume Autism, they'd assess the child.

The Parents are dealing with this well, at the moment, from what it sounds like.

A lot of that behaviour sounds like my DN used to be - for example I very gently told her to stay in the back garden and it go near the road and there was about an hour of hysterics because I had " shouted" at her. Any rebuke involved sobbing " you've upset me " for quite some time.
Sil is VERY neurotic and refuses to allow either of the DC to encounter anything negative at all, we had to change the route of a walk because we would be going through a graveyard with children's graves in it and her children MIGHT realise that children sometimes die ( promise I'm not making this up). Her behaviour wasn't too bad away from her mum and once she started school it really improved.
I have very little experience of SN so I have no idea if your niece has them but her behaviour could be down to being completely indulged by her parents and not much mixing with other children ( who generally aren't as willing to put up with spoilt behaviour)

I wondered at PDA and ASD.

This is not NT behaviour at all IMO. I have two with SEN - one autistic and the other has diagnosed ADHD but I personally think she's on the spectrum. They couldn't be more different. I think it sounds very much like ASD type behaviour even though I realise you can't diagnose over the Internet of course and there are many, many presentations. All children present very differently. But the mere fact that her mother has decided to home school her just shows she is aware that she needs unusual adjustments that other children usually wouldn't (even if she doesn't know why).

If I were her parents I would be pressing for an assessment. Obviously her parents may not want to hear this. The world can be a very confusing and stressful place for children who have ASD.

Yes heard of. Autism is more widely recognised than something like sensory processing for example.

Lay people and indeed some general professionals can jump to conclusions and I was merely cautioning against that. At least that was our experience.

'If people don't talk to her in the 'right' way she completely shuts down'

This is not the behaviour of a child who has been 'spoiled'. When children shut down its because they can't cope and shutting down is their way of protecting themselves. Her parents passing it off as sensitivity isn't going to help her either. The longer things like this go undiagnosed, the more difficult it is to get the help they need and it's not easy anyway - you have to be as stubborn as a mule.

One of my nieces has similar traits but I know it wont go down well if I suggest any sort of medical assessment to her parents who seem in denial of her various social problems. She is five so I am hoping it may be picked up at school.

I'm not an expert but girls are usually able to function with autism differently to boys, and are almost able to 'hide' it to a degree.

The worry is that when she hits puberty and is flooded with hormones and teenage angst, and can't be micromanaged by her mum, the problems really escalate.

It's a shame some people's assumption is still first that the parents might be neurotic or spoiling the child. I think further assessment would be warranted here. Quire a few red flags.

My DGS (11) is like this. He is on the spectrum but not a severe case, can make eye contact and so on (but would rather not iyswim) and he wasnt diagnosed till about 8yrs old as no serious obvious traits but l always suspected by the way he would line up the shopping on the moving belt for example (fine - kids get bored shopping)but it was the distress he showed if he was running out of time and still things to 'straighten' before it was our turn etc. It's as if he needs to compartmentalise everything and finish one thing before staring another. He would never eat anything broken either - a biscuit , or a chocolate bar , he would just flatly refuse to and have a meltdown , even if it was his favourite treat. But interestingly from your pov, your post reminded me that last week we were crossing a road behind a car that waiting to turn at a junction and he walked so close to the car he brushed the back of it and I instinctively put my hand on his shoulder and told him to be careful doing that because some cars roll back as they pull away or the driver might decide to reverse etc. He obsessed about it for about half an hour insisting he already knew that and hadnt needed me to 'pull him away' and tell him this and seemed quite distressed about the fact I had told him , even though l said it very casually and in a nice manner and nobody overheard me and only lightly touched his shoulder.

She doesn't sound autistic to me, she sounds spoilt.

How does she play? Does she make eye contact? Does she enjoy films and understand what is happening and why? How is her speech?

There is so much more to autism than just some problem behaviours which are far more likely to be due to parenting.

The home schooling could also be the mother wanted to homeschool before birth, or wanting to provide her child with a better education than that locally, or many reasons. We don't know how aware the parents are.

My son is similar and now has an autism diagnosis, and school has been wonderful to help teach him social skills. It's been less good for dn (different, useless school) but a similar boy I know who is homeschooled might learn better in a school - it's so hard to tell and comes down to individual teachers.

Memoires none of the things you mention are factors of ASD, sorry.

People with ASD can have good speech and enjoy films..and make eye contact

Yes, fanjo

Memoires you sound like you know very little about how autism presents to be honest.

Wow. I saw this thread and the OPs DN sounds just like my DD. We home ed because she can't hack the chaotic, pointlessly authoritarianism of school, we have to give the warnings about impending activities like leaving the house, plus some days we can't go anywhere because one of either shoes or socks just feel too 'wrong'.

Now I am wondering (again) if we should actually get DD checked out for ASD or sensory disorders...

The whole 'what will happen when she has to go into the big bad real world' question is such total BS.

Nursery and School are in no way a similar environment to grown up work environments....unless you happen to work in a noisy room with 30 other people the exact same age as you (some of which are busy shouting, jostling, doing anything they can to disrupt everyone else), doing tasks with arbitrary cut off points set by an all powerful boss, and where you not only have to ask permission to use the bathroom, but the boss might say no, wait another 45 mins till lunch....oh and your lunch box gets policed and your food may get confiscated at will.

I am sure there are any number of people with ASD or sensory disorders who can work in a whole range of jobs perfectly well who could never thrive in a school environment.

Sounds EXACTLY like how my asd dd (and our management of her) would present to the many family members we've decided not to tell about the dx for any number of reasons.

Memoires you are so very wrong!

Our DD8 is on the more extreme end of the spectrum compared to her brother DS14 who is also autistic.

DD makes eye contact,she loves films,she has an amazing memory can recite every single word and song from a film in perfect order after watching a film only once!

Our DD also has amazing speech,she'e learnt french,some Italian and Spanish as well and she's only 8!

Some of us that have suggested that there are alot of traits of ASD and PDA have actually had experience of both not only with our own DC but through working with other peoples children and have helped other familys gain a diagnosis for they're child/children.

So some of us are not jumping to conclusions,some of us have spoken to parents before without having met the child in question and have helped the parents arrange an appointment with a specialist for the family to come back and say that they've received a diagnosis of ASD and are now starting to get some support and help for they're child and themselves!

OP it's possible that your db and SIL have already began to access support for their dd and have chosen not to share this information with the wider family.

If her parents aren't ready to consider that there may be an underlying issue then there is not a lot you can do. She does sound like a young girl presenting with ASD traits to be frank.

Home education can be a red herring. There are lots of social and learning groups where parents and children get together. Perhaps you could ask how she finds those? Engage the parents in talking about it, get them to reflect a little.

I considered the passage to show flags for ASD. But I also know poor parenting can cause some of the issues.

However your post about her parents not having more because th didn't realise how difficult it is reads to me like they parent her the way they do because of her behaviours not that her behaviours are as a result of a way they've chosen to parent iyswim?

Jojo that's the biggest load of disablist crap I have ever read. Reported.

jojo2916 I think if you try you might be able to squeeze the word 'pander' a couple more times into that reply.....

But yes, yes that's exactly what people with SEN and MN issues should do, just pull their bloody socks up get a life a job and bally well get on with it eh?