To think this is not such a good idea to blame me for DH's decision with PIL?

[logosthecat]

Ok some background.

PIL are difficult - DH and I both agree wholeheartedly on this, there is no argument (fwiw, BIL and his partner also agree!). However, DH loves his folks and does want to maintain some kind of relationship. Long history of domineering/bullying behaviour, DH has had counselling to deal with it. They live at the opposite end of the country.

They have been retired since their 40s (inheritance), and they don't really remember what it's like to deal with the stresses of the working week. I think they don't really understand the difference between 'rest' and 'relaxation' - that, if you're absolutely exhausted by work, the things that you might normally find relaxing, like going to nice places, can become a chore.

DH has a VERY demanding job. Long hours, lots of responsibility, lots of aggro. And it's just got worse as he's been promoted. We tend to use the weekends for rest and recuperation. However, when we visit them, it is a cacophony of noise and activity for day after day - we are literally marched around visiting places from first thing thing in the morning to last thing at night. DH is harassed and stressed and upset by this (they are also terribly insensitive, which doesn't help). He frequently becomes ill during or after the visit, and we then hobble through the following week with him going to work and returning to collapse with exhaustion in the evenings, because he hasn't had the downtime he needs. It really bites into our quality of life.

For this reason, we are trying to have shorter visits with PIL. We used to do 4-5 days 4 times a year. We are trying to see them for 1-1.5 days more frequently, every couple of months.

So here's the issue.

We are due to visit their home in August, and DH outlined to them that we'd only be spending one night (2 days). (This has been clear from the start, but they have been conveniently ignoring it to now). All hell broke loose. FIL went into full emotional blackmail mode: 'This is TERRIBLE, your mother will be terribly disappointed, she's been so excited with all the days she's got planned, we're not getting any younger' etc etc etc. We hosted them for a long weekend last month, and we also saw them at a beer festival the month before!!

DH kept his cool but framed the decision that it was pressure from me. 'I need to spend some time with my wife, I've only been staring at screens the last few weekends, and she says she wants some time for just the two of us'. This is not actually true. We agreed together that we didn't want to do the long visits, and I have not, in fact, asked for more of his time! The issue is simply with the way that they are stressful to deal with and both of us reach our limit of tolerance (beyond which we are simply gritting our teeth) at about 24 hours in their company.

AIBU to think that this is likely to lead them to dislike and blame me for the changes? And that there might be better ways of handling it, like being more honest about the actual state of affairs? (I don't mind being told I AM being unreasonable if it is a good plan, I am just not sure we are handling this as well as we could).

Aaah, the jokey putdown, I know it well.

Have you tried "not getting" that it was a joke? If you react every time by drawing attention to it "Im sorry, did you just say X? What a hurtful thing to say, why would you say that?", it makes it clear that this is not a joke to you.

You know, even though you are both describing absolutely horrible experiences of stress to the point of unwellness, and I am very sorry you have experienced that, I am grateful that you have shared them. I have sometimes wondered if there is something wrong with us that we really feel like we can't breathe! It's not just being a bit tired, being a bit frazzled, but a real feeling of 'I need air, I need air, let me breathe'. Psychological air, not just actual air! It's comforting to know that others have experienced that sense of being just... smothered. The best way I can describe it is being engulfed in a warm, airless, black hole that is slowly contracting around me.

Oh my goodness fantastic - that sounds absolutely horrendous. Your poor family. I am admiring of your courage in walking away, but I realise how hard it must be for you because however 'right' that decision is, there is always a part of you that just yearns to have a fully-functional and supportive relationship with parents. The loss is always there underneath things, even though NC allows you to build more of a normal life away from the madness. Your poor brothers: it's taken such a chunk of time for them to realise. Sometimes I think men are more shielded from these dynamics, though, so it takes longer (perhaps this is why, as sequential wisely observes, it is the presence of wives or outsiders that forces the issue).

I don't know if I have the balls for 'did you mean to be so rude'. I ought to, I know. Perhaps I will work up to it. I guess this ties into sequential's remark about the politeness. I am quite good at firm but polite, and I have never in my life really needed to go to the levels of calm firmness that are demanded by their behaviour. It's really practice I need at taking things to a higher level of assertiveness. I don't really want to lose my temper, simply because that way I think I would cede more control to them. Passive-aggression can play the victim card quite hard when confronted with anger. I would rather be able to find ways of being assertive, because I think that would be more empowering for me (and more of a challenge in a way, in terms of my own learning from all this).

I will think about your suggestion of an email, sequential. I have had several polite-but-firm exchanges with MIL over email, for example when she asked me what DH wanted for his birthday 'because I don't know what you have, because we never see you' - this 6 weeks after they had visited our house! I think stating it more baldly in black and white might be helpful because I am clearer, I think, in writing than I am in speech. In fact, throughout this thread, I have been taking some notes on a draft email just in case I should need them in future. (I half expected an email from her after DH spoke on the phone, but I was wrong).

I've chatted a lot to BIL's partner about it. He and BIL are super-lovely, really supportive people, the types that everyone loves. He is about 12 years older than me (I'm 38) and calmer and wiser about how he handles them. I think they have moved significantly over the last couple of years from 'they mean well, let's just put up with it' to 'this really isn't on at all', and they have cut down on the amount of visiting they do as a result. As I said before, BIL's partner doesn't get the same level of criticism being a bloke - when they did subject his new house to the same treatment I get, he got very much more upset and offended than I've seen him previously. I have to admit that, while I was sad to see him upset - they behaved very rudely - a little bit of me was 'Now you can truly understand what it's like!'

stormtreader - I like that! I can see myself doing it. I have to be careful I don't slip into passive-aggressive behaviour that makes me as bad as they are, but keep the communication honest and open!

Just to suggest a survival strategy, it sounds like you need a way of compartmentalising so that it's easier to cope with the comments and criticism. I have to do this a lot at work, which is easier of course. I imagine having a shield around me (like in a sci fi movie) and the words bouncing off. I also have to think that the comment is not about me but the role I happen to have, so it's what I represent that's criticised, not me. Does that make sense? It helps give me space to think of a better response, or to not respond in a way that will make it worse. It's not easy, but helps. You represent a threat, the fear of aging/death, a different way of living, in some way "other" than their fixed view of the world. That could be why they try to control you and the time you spend there, it is one of the few things they have control over. It's almost like a toddler having meltdowns about how the train track is put together, it's one of the only things they can control so if it's not the way they like they go overboard in bringing it into line with their view.

rainbow - I like that image of the words bouncing off, and I think it would be really helpful for me to get there, but I can't imagine achieving it. Tell me more about how you do it, if you have a second. How do you feel inside? Do you detach yourself from the situation mentally so it's almost like you are outside yourself looking in? Or is it like you are super-centred and you have this force of protection all around you? Or is it more that you detach yourself from being totally identified with your work persona?

I would like to be able to be impervious and powerful like that!!

Impervious and powerful - wow I wish! It just reduces the hurt. I guess I kind of detach myself. So I'm Rainbow the Manager, not Rainbow me. You could be Logos the DIL, it wouldn't matter who you are, whoever had that role would be facing those comments. It's the difference between it being about you and being about the DIL who reminds us we're getting old, that she's stolen our son and our control over him, and all that guff they spout. It's not personal, in it's simplest description. It's about the things you pose/ represent that they don't like and need to control. Does that help? Sorry, it's difficult to describe now I think about it!

Sorry, to add to my last it's, I do actually visualise in my head a force field around me, like a special effect! I realise I sound a bit of a loon, but I have this kind of transparent globe around me, no words can actually get through it to touch me, so then they can't hurt me (that's the "logic" behind it, it won't stand up to scrutiny by a quantum physicist but it works in my head!)

Blimey it sounds nuts, written down

((((((((((Hugs))))))))))) Op

logo you sound like a saint for putting up with this for so long. I do think your BIL is onto something by pulling back because that sounds truely awful.

As an aside has anyone told you, you are a wonderful writer. You really can bring your experiences to life. I am feeling claustrophobic on your behalf reading your descriptions. Hmmmm maybe there is a book in here somewhere. 'Misery' springs to mind worryingly.

I definitely like the "did you mean to be so rude"

Criticism on the domestic front is the reason my ILs have not had a meal in my house for 3.5 years. The last time I cooked dinner was my sons 2nd birthday, Spaghetti Bolognese, pasta and rice, one of them doesn't like pasta, FIL wouldn't eat it (after telling me Bolognese was ok) because you can see tomatos in it. What the heck did he think was in Bolognese???? Honestly I was so stressed I vowed never again.

You and DH can take control of your visits to them. More difficult to control their visits to you.

It is certainly good to have an allie in the form of BIL & partner. My BILs wife has been a great allie for me. Her and BIL have woken up to the bullying / controlling behaviour of PIL. My DH doesn't see it but he has his own ways of dealing with them - doesn't give them much info - likes to keep them in the dark!

OP, I am so glad you posted this thread. It is quite uncomfortable reading as it is so close to my experience including:

Such absurd behaviour and arguments I feel like I have gone down the rabbit hole
Having absolutely no concern whatsoever for other people's opinions/wants/needs
Sneering at religious people
Considering themselves v rational (!!!)
Gendered heteronormative expectations
Bullying FIL
Critical MIL
Laughing at food I cook them ( I no longer cook for them!)
Indecision to the point of destructive behaviour
Inappropriate housing
Issues around cars, driving, being in a car with them etc!
Tantrums if we don't stay 'long enough'
Complaints about not doing enough with them
Verbal attacks for the slightest difference of opinion
Horrible Christmases which they insist on us attending even though they admit they 'hate Christmas'
Demanding I do 'activities' when ill
V early retirement in their early 50s, but have always behaved like people decades older
Few if any friends (infact a few months ago they actually stopped leaving the house or seeing anyone except my husband, but that is a whole other thread).

I think the big issue which hasn't got that much attention here is the scapegoating.

A nasty, nasty little trick which my PILs used to pull was offering me the opportunity to decide what we were going to do/where we were going to go when I visited.

What would then follow would be hours (literally hours) of coming up with 'problems' around what I wanted to do and 'reasons' why we couldn't do something, before grudgingly agreeing to do something, sneering that it was boring, complaining the whole time we did it, declaring it a disaster and blaming said disaster on me.

This blaming could go on for hours, and hours, and hours, and include verbal attacks. And they never. let. it. go. Grudges are still held about a decision I once made to get an Indian takeaway. Seriously.

I now ignore and refuse to engage with them which also incurs their ire and wrath and blaming me for being 'boring', proving that I could never actually get it right.

However, the issue here is that I was scapegoated. Its not really a problem if two miserable bastards want to live out their life in a bizarre, lonely rabbit hole, but it is a problem if I am being scapegoated for their unhappiness with a situation that really has nothing to do with me and my husband isn't defending me.

While I am pleased that we have finally had a valuable difficult ILs thread without lots of shouts of 'you have a DH problem', I do wonder where he is in all of this. Yes he admits there is a problem (my DH doesn't really) but where was he when your PILs were shouting and screaming in the back of the car and then accused you of being rude when you asked them to shut up? What did he do?

I appreciate the point made further up that issuing ultimatums to men we chose to marry, who have grown up in dysfunctional families with bullying fathers is hardly particuarly nice or constructive, he also can't shrug off all responsibility.

I now barely see my ILs, and have made clear to my DH that it is because I will not enter a situation with people who are likely to attack me knowing I won't be defended by him. Quite frankly what is in it for me? He doesn't agree with me but sort of respects my decision.

Are you planning on discussing this thread and the thoughts on it with your DH?

steve - I keep thinking that too, and then forgetting to mention it! OP, you have an amazing way with words. Your descriptions are really vivid and poetic at times.

OP this sounds horrendous and I completely understand how it must just wear you down.

I haven't read all the updates so I'm sorry if this is a repeat of what's already been said, but I noticed how much politeness is a theme - which I totally get, being polite and reasonable is so ingrained in most people (including me). But the thing is - they are not being polite to you. By behaving in this way they have already broken the social contract, so I don't think you need to feel bad about modifying your own responses. That doesn't mean you have to be rude, but I love the idea about calling out their own rudeness, and perhaps just expressing your incredulity when they do or say something completely bonkers.

I'm a firm believer that we should be at least as nice to our family and friends as we are to strangers - so if they are behaving in ways you wouldn't accept from a stranger or acquaintance, there's nothing wrong with pointing that out and responding to it. I do understand the avalanche of passive aggressive behaviour that can unleash and it's so uncomfortable to deal with, but I've had some success in PA situations by just sticking to my guns and when they say something like "but I was just trying to take care of you" or "well I certainly didn't mean anything by it", just calming responding with "I'm sure you didn't mean to be hurtful but you were". The instinct to smooth things over is very hard to resist, but it does get easier with practice

OP reading this several things spring to mind, so in no particular order:

You need to start playing PIL bingo - write down everything bad and worse they might possibly say or do in a visit, then ostentatiously cross them off your list when they actually happen, without explaining what you are doing. Throw in a few unexpecteds and jokers too to cover everything. IN advance, work out with DH the prize structure - whether you're just going to go for numbers or sets of things said or whatever. And whether the prize is just a nice box of chocolates, first one to have a nice lazy hot bath or choice of box sets or takeaway when you get home, a bottle of wine or a hand bag - there needs to be something riding on it. So that instead of each comment acting as another turn of the vice suffocating you, it's something that's getting you one step closer to your 'prize'. It will also show you that they are very predictable in what they say - if you can predict what they say, it begins to lose power too.

Take hold of that predictability and say you're serving them a meal or showing them your garden and you know they're going to make a list of nasty points towards you, get it over and done with as you serve the meal. So 'here you go MIL, what's going to be the issue today. I expect I haven't put enough salt in the gravy for you again but there is salt on the table so you can add enough to make it just right for you. And the beans might be a tad overdone - well they were perfect when I called but I wasn't expecting you to take quite so long. And the beef is beautifully pink but I can't remember if you like your beef pink this week or not? And I know you're not going to like the roast potatoes because you haven't made them etc etc going really overboard. And that will really take the wind out of their sails as they won't have anything left to complain about, plus it will look really churlish if they do say anything more. And they might even have to think of something nice to say, just to prove you wrong.

Regarding the infantilising - start doing it back to them. When they say something that's in order to control you, turn it back on them with a 'Come on, don't be so ridiculous. You're not toddlers. You're more than capable of going in two separate cars to the castle. That way, we can come home when we are ready to, and not get stuck hanging around waiting for you to finish. It's no fun for us if we are tired and want to go home. It's no fun for you if you have to leave before you are ready. This way is perfect as it suits both of our different requirements.'

And then if they protest again - turn it round onto their achilles heel - their age. (and with apologies to all those who have parents who are genuinely suffering as a result of their age, I'm not trying to minimise that but these PIL are not normal and thus the OP needs every tactic available to her!) So - 'What, you're not able to drive to the castle in your own car and meet us there? So what's wrong with you? What haven't you been telling us? 70 is the new 40 you keep telling us, so what are you so worried about? Is the drive too long? Do you have problems remembering the way? Well we'd better not go and just have a relaxing time here while we get to the problems that you're having as a result of your age. Do we need to get carers in for you? etc etc' By which time they will be desperate to go to prove to you that they are perfectly fine... At which point you say that's great, that's sorted, you go in your car and we'll follow on in ours.

Part of the trick is to work out your arguments in advance so that either way you have a good option for you - in the case above - either you go in separate cars or you don't go at all. But you haven't explicitly outlined those as the only two options (so they don't have the chance to add their own option) - they've fallen out as the only two options from the conversations you've had with them. And judicious and liberal use of 'you're behaving like toddlers/don't be babies/you really sound quite old/senile etc' when they make ridiculous remarks will show that you're not for the bossing around either and whilst it might make them be even worse for a while (more PIL Bingo points!), it might help to calm them down in the long run.

Re the staying in a hotel - next time just present it as a fait acompli and say that you've booked into a hotel because the last few times you've stayed, despite being very tired, you've been woken up by them coming into your room every night in the middle of the night and you've been woken up by them early every morning. And you can't cope with that this weekend, you need to recover and get lots of sleep. So this time, as it's really important that you have time to recover

ethelb ref. BLAMING. If I hear ex DIL or GD (sadly she has started to do it now) starting to 'blame" anyone, I say very loudly now 'I don't play the blame game lalala…." And I tune out totally. It works !!!

I am so lucky to receive so many thoughtful and truly helpful responses.

rainbow - thank you for explaining! I think I get it: is it like separating the part of you that is being criticised from the real "core" of you? I am going to try to imagine the forcefield around me, and see if I can do it!

bear - I completely understand about the bolognese! These things seem funny in retrospect, but they really are NOT at the time, and having people flounce around when you've cooked is horrible. I think you are right about allies. One of the corrosive things about facing such self-centred behaviour is that, if you are used to listening to other people and clearing space for them, and if you don't approach the world with an "I am always right" mentality, it can lead you to question yourself. There are times when I wonder if there isn't something wrong with me that I feel so awful after a few hours with them (I will shake and feel sick). Having someone else to say "No, it's not you, this really is weird" is sanity-preserving. BIL and his partner are brilliant for that. BIL has more of an ability than the rest of us to be brusque with them, and a wonderful sense of humour. At Christmas, the whole family was out and I was having a conversation with a friend we'd bumped into randomly. MIL kept calling my name, louder and louder, right over our conversation, and then said "Are we heading home? Put the kettle on for us when you arrive, there's a good girl". BIL piped up "Yes, because logosDH can't work the kettle. It's a WOMAN'S JOB!'

ethel - Oh my goodness. I had goosebumps reading your post, because PIL do something very similar. They make it seem as though they are asking our opinion about what we want to do, and then they raise objections to our suggestions, or they keep presenting an alternative. It's a kind of false consultation that is simply designed to give the appearance that they actually care what we think, while actually concealing bullying. In our case, we never do what we've suggested because behaviour as you have outlined would surely follow. (And how awful for you to have to endure that! What a disgraceful way to treat you - it's the extended nature of the 'trap' they've set that is cruel). We end up doing what they want to do anyway. That is fine - I don't mind being a bit flexible, but it is another reason for shorter visits: I do not mind bending to their schedule for a couple of days when I know I have a day back home to recover, but longer than that I cannot do!

noodle - I absolutely agree with you about needing to not be polite. The strange thing is that the block there is in my own head. I am surprised how hard it is to step beyond the fence that rings what I'd consider normal, polite behaviour - I had thought of it as a more superficial psychological choice than it actually is. I think the problem is that the passive-aggressive nature of their reactions, and particularly the way that they play with the forms of politeness without the essence (see what I said to ethel above), politeness is to weak and aggression too strong. It's like my mind gets confused by the need to be much firmer than I've ever needed to be with anyone else, but non-aggressive, and I go blank, start stammering, and get wrong-footed. The way out of this, I am certain, is to practice assertiveness, in the sense of calm, non-aggressive statement of my needs, my boundaries, and my right to be treated as a person that remains polite but firm. I need to work on being more articulate under pressure.

confuugled - that idea of PIL bingo may save my sanity!! It is a good one, and I can see how it might be part of what Rainbow is suggesting, some ideas of distancing the inner core of "me" from the situation. I also think that the idea of using the age thing might work. "We are all grown up here, we don't need to believe Santa comes on Christmas Day" or "Is there a reason you'd prefer us to take one car? Is driving difficult for you with your knees?' might work as a last resort.

One of the problems, I'm realising, is that we always try to protect them from the consequences of their own actions, because we have a social sense of them as very touchy, huffy people (even though they are so leaden-footed with the feelings of others, they are acutely sensitive to perceived slights on them). So they will ask us 'But why do you want to take two cars' and we don't answer honestly with 'Because we really need a bit of peace and quiet to ourselves, just for half an hour' in case we hurt their feelings. Equally, when they say 'But you can spend a relaxing weekend with us', we don't say 'Actually, we need weekends as downtime for rest, and this is more like uptime. It's lovely to see you, but we do need some rest and a chance to get ourselves straight for the week ahead'. I am going to use both those lines in future, I think. We are not actually being fair to them if they don't understand what the real issues are.

steve/murmuration Oh, thank you for the kind words! You just made my day. I am trying to write a book at the moment and it isn't going very well (I have block, which is more a confidence issue than anything to do with ideas), so it means a lot to have such lovely things said.

*politeness is toO week. Missing 'o'! Sorry!

Have you bought the book Where to draw the line etc? It really might help with the drawing up of proper boundaries for yourself.

The advantage of telling them truth is that when they complain back/moan about you to others they will end up repeating what you have said and validating that you have given them a completely valid reason for it.

We can only do 2 days because more than that is too long...

4 visits per year of 4 to 5 days each? So you spend 20 days every year on these full on excursions? Plus when they visit you, or you meet up somewhere? I'm not surprised you are both at the end of your tethers, that is a lot of time to spend with people who you find difficult, no matter how much you (or dh at any rate!) love them. I hope he sticks to his guns about the shorter visits. What would happen if he was completely honest with his parents and just said ' I am completely exhausted by work since my promotion and I just don't have the energy to spend more than a night away'.

Glad to hear you are using your talent. Best of luck with the book.

I suggest that you print out all these posts, keep them safe, and in thirty years time, when you are approaching seventy, read them again; perhaps then you will understand why your in-laws were burning and raving at the close of day.

There have been many unnecessarily unkind posts on here about your eccentric, exasperating, irrational parents in law, yours included, but they are your family, and they clearly love you.

I am with Bathsheba; the problem is your husband.

goblin, you are making the error that these are normal poeple in their 70's. I've complained about my parents here. I have not complained about my PIL. They are a little bit older than my folks - later rather than mid-70s. They are normal human beings. My 6 days with my parents was immediately after 2 weeks with PIL, and the contrast was ever so more obvious. DH and I rested with PIL, and less than half the time with my parents hit me so hard that I'm still recovering weeks later.

Yes, PIL had eccentric things, like MIL asking DH what he wanted from the takeaway and getting almost, but not quite that and saying "oh, don't bring shampoo and stuff, we'll buy some for you" and not having any in the house (what did they wash their hair with?). But they were normal, kind, helpful, and when you said something it felt like a conversation not like you were an annoying fly to be ignored. They showed us they loved us and cared about us, by, you know, listening to things we had to say, considering them, talking to us like fellow adults and so on.

My parents have been like this all the time I've known them. The age has just created new issues, like what is going to happen about their house. It has not in any way created this behaviour. It sounds like OP's PIL are the same.

People can love you and still treat you poorly. This is why I continue to interact with my parents - I know they love me, but are really not equipped to interact on a normal human level. But I can handle it, and doing something to hurt them would only confuse them and it's actually very sad. I really wish I could have parents that I could enjoy being around.

And glad to hear you're writing a book, OP! Keep going! Your talent shines through just on random internet posts, I'm sure your book will be great :)

Goblin I don't think anyone has been unkind. Unless you have parents / ILs who are hard work you will not understand. Age is no excuse for being rude to people
or riding rough shod over them. Age is simply no excuse for walking into a bedroom while adults are sleeping.

MIL loves my DS but that doesn't excuse her for walking into a bedroom where he was sleeping 2ft from me and lifting him "to keep him in his routine" what routine??? Really she did it to show him off to her pal who was in the kitchen. That really showed me her wants would always come before my baby's needs. Not to mention how incredibly rude to DH and I.

I do think very early retirement does have something to do with the lack of respect for others for what normal boundaries are. Do people become very self centred when they have nobody to answer too? My MIL never worked PIL retired in his 50's.

One thing is for sure I won't be able to retire in my 50's so I won't have a clue how it is to be 70 and be 20 years into retirement.

They sound like a nightmare, OP, much sympathy I think I'd be quite direct and tell them to bugger off out of the bedroom because we are still sleeping and DH is knackered, as we told them. Then just point blank refuse to be marched off anywhere for a visit and sit around in dressing gowns and slippers taking a looong time over breakfast. Then maybe second breakfast. "You go out if you like, we'll stay here." If screaming and wailing ensues then go and check into a hotel, have a nice relaxing break and drive home again at your leisure.