To think this is not such a good idea to blame me for DH's decision with PIL?

[logosthecat]

Ok some background.

PIL are difficult - DH and I both agree wholeheartedly on this, there is no argument (fwiw, BIL and his partner also agree!). However, DH loves his folks and does want to maintain some kind of relationship. Long history of domineering/bullying behaviour, DH has had counselling to deal with it. They live at the opposite end of the country.

They have been retired since their 40s (inheritance), and they don't really remember what it's like to deal with the stresses of the working week. I think they don't really understand the difference between 'rest' and 'relaxation' - that, if you're absolutely exhausted by work, the things that you might normally find relaxing, like going to nice places, can become a chore.

DH has a VERY demanding job. Long hours, lots of responsibility, lots of aggro. And it's just got worse as he's been promoted. We tend to use the weekends for rest and recuperation. However, when we visit them, it is a cacophony of noise and activity for day after day - we are literally marched around visiting places from first thing thing in the morning to last thing at night. DH is harassed and stressed and upset by this (they are also terribly insensitive, which doesn't help). He frequently becomes ill during or after the visit, and we then hobble through the following week with him going to work and returning to collapse with exhaustion in the evenings, because he hasn't had the downtime he needs. It really bites into our quality of life.

For this reason, we are trying to have shorter visits with PIL. We used to do 4-5 days 4 times a year. We are trying to see them for 1-1.5 days more frequently, every couple of months.

So here's the issue.

We are due to visit their home in August, and DH outlined to them that we'd only be spending one night (2 days). (This has been clear from the start, but they have been conveniently ignoring it to now). All hell broke loose. FIL went into full emotional blackmail mode: 'This is TERRIBLE, your mother will be terribly disappointed, she's been so excited with all the days she's got planned, we're not getting any younger' etc etc etc. We hosted them for a long weekend last month, and we also saw them at a beer festival the month before!!

DH kept his cool but framed the decision that it was pressure from me. 'I need to spend some time with my wife, I've only been staring at screens the last few weekends, and she says she wants some time for just the two of us'. This is not actually true. We agreed together that we didn't want to do the long visits, and I have not, in fact, asked for more of his time! The issue is simply with the way that they are stressful to deal with and both of us reach our limit of tolerance (beyond which we are simply gritting our teeth) at about 24 hours in their company.

AIBU to think that this is likely to lead them to dislike and blame me for the changes? And that there might be better ways of handling it, like being more honest about the actual state of affairs? (I don't mind being told I AM being unreasonable if it is a good plan, I am just not sure we are handling this as well as we could).

OP

I appreciate that it is hard. You would give yourself more power by booking into a hotel and using your own car for trips.

I agree Jacquetta. It's good advice, and definitely something I'm looking at - in fact, I have tripadvisor open alongside Mumsnet! I might leave it this time, because the shorter visit is already controversial - but I WILL be doing it for sure at Christmas.

Firstly dont stay at their house stay at a hotel. This will upset them of course and they will kick off but its hotel or no visit. If they kick up a fuss go home. Approach it in a zero tolerance way. They cannot bully you into activities if you dont engage. If yoy say No and they insist then leave. Yes they are going to kick off (like toddlers do) but eventually they will have to compromise or they will not see you. I'm sorry if it isnt a hlepful suggestion I do appreciate how difficult it must be and wish you luck they sound awful.

I think actions are the only thing that will make any difference here, speaking as they do so much louder than words. They won't listen to you, they will never listen to you, they won't be reasonable. I think you have to say less and act more.

Go for a shorter times, take your own car when you go out, book into a hotel, whatever. But trying to reason with them hasn't worked so far and I don't think it ever will. Just do what needs to be done for your own sanity.

Sounds awful for you.

Can you email them beforehand detailing your concerns and essentially laying down an ultimatum of 'this is how we will enjoy our visits, if this doesn't happen we will leave'.

I have relatives like this and the best way to deal with them is tell them nothing and don't see them!

I'm normally an advocate of checking out any unusual level of tiredness, but I think most people woukd struggle with these weekends.

Not just the physical stuff - long drive, days out, late nights. I suspect he could manage that occasionally if he was having a nice time.

But the constant emotional drain of being bulldozed and bullied must be utterly exhausting.

Reading it, it is hard to understand why you let yourselves be bullied and pushed around to that extent.

But they do sound bizarrely awful to be around.

Why see them at all?

"I think actions are the only thing that will make any difference"

I agree with this 100%.

I'm so glad you are looking at hotels for Christmas. You NEED to plan your visit so it suits you and your Dh. You can at least retreat to your room whenever it all gets too much. You can also get a good nights sleep!

Do you think if you said to them "we will stay in a hotel but for 3 days, instead of two" they would accept it better?

This is not normal. At all. They are toxic and dysfunctional (have you read toxic in laws BTW?).

You need to to book into a hotel and ignore any emotional blackmail/bullying, as they have got their own way by doing this in the past. Both of you need to set boundaries and stick to them. For instance, if they go on and on either leave or go home, this is supposed to be nice family time and not hell.

You have stated you are feisty but seem to be afraid of upsetting the apple cart. Stop putting their needs first, this already impacts your DP's health.

Ask yourself this, what will happen when/if DC arrive? This cycle of staying for days, going on outings all day, going to the pub/dinner at night and staying awake until the early hours would not work. Children need naps/rest and life would need to revolve around them and their routine.

Agree with the posters above - it's pointless to even attempt to discuss or reason with people like this. Words are wasted breath.

The hotel option sounds like the way forward, so that you can go back to your room and rest when you need to. You also have the freedom afforded by travelling in separate cars when you do go out. Don't bother arguing about needing to do your own thing, just do it.

"Don't bother arguing about needing to do your own thing, just do it."

YY to this.

They are being rude to you, repeatedly. Don't worry about feeling rude back!

I think you are over thinking this, engaging far too much and giving it too much of your emotional energy! I don't have direct similar experience, but both my parents had poor relationships with their parents and both of our sets of parents live 2/3 hours drive away. Both my father and my husband, despite being very assertive people in general, found/find it very hard to say no to their mothers!

You are NOT obliged to see them, or entertain them! If seeing them is upsetting both of you to this extent then I think it would probably be reasonable to be completely NC. If you don't feel that you wish to do this, then I think you would be entirely reasonable to have contact exactly on your terms. Maybe one meet up a year, perhaps in a neutral place, say a hotel half way between your homes, for lunch. You would also need to be very disciplined about other sorts of contact. My mum got a caller number display for the phone in the 80s so that they could choose when to answer the phone to my dad's mum. Perhaps you could block email and mobile numbers and only answer the landline to them when it is convenient to you so that you don't HAVE to engage with them.

Did you say you don't have DCs? If and when you do, a 5 hour drive with babies is hellish, and could end up taking all day with feed and nappy stops. It just wouldn't be do-able at the frequency you are doing it at the moment. Plus when they get older that many trips away in a year really eats into your own family time for fun and activities. So you would need to cut down on visits at that time, and you could start that process now!

Maybe some might think this is harsh, but really, if they upset you this much then you cannot carry on the relationship as it is.

Thanks for the sympathy, guys! I'm not kidding when I say it makes me feel stronger and more able to be all about the boundaries.

I was initially attracted to the idea of giving them the choice: 'We can stay with you 2 days/1 night, or in a hotel for 3 days/2 nights'. But they would just say 'Well, you can stay for 3, so stay with us for 3. Oh no, there's no point paying for a hotel, we have a lovely comfy bed, and your mother would SO like to see you, and we'll be offended if you stay elsewhere, it's a stupid idea, such a waste of money, and hotels aren't ecofriendly either, just think of the damage you'll be doing... etc etc etc'. And then you have to be a broken record through 5-10 minutes of cajoling, which is unpleasant. They don't drop it at a 'normal' point, either, which is another of the things that is awkward. The conversation drags on and on and on. Whereas with a sensitive person, you'd just say 'no' once or twice, and with an obtuse person five or six times, you literally have to go to dozens and dozens of times with them. I've never witnessed anything like it. Even though we stay pretty calm externally, it is hard not to feel stressed inside when someone really isn't taking your 'no' for a serious answer. Perhaps this will be the moment to get irate in future!

They really don't get the 'we need our own time/space' thing, even though we have patiently explained it over and over, and I honestly don't think it's that hard to understand. They take it personally, I think. I also believe it actually causes FIL anxiety when we are around but he is not able to control us.

Sadly, we can't have DCs. We haven't yet told them, and it's a conversation I'm dreading. (I did approach it last visit with MIL - we were talking vaguely about fostering because my friends have just adopted a little boy, and she just looked at me and said 'It's not the same as a REAL child'.) For a long time, before I realised there was a big problem, I thought that when they had GCs, the needs of the children would have to come first. But now I realise that they would just use the situation to demand more visits, yet would sulk at the imposition of another person's routine. What made me realise this is the fact that I have been quite ill the last 3 years, which is why I am now infertile, and they have given no quarter for the fact that I really couldn't cope or needed rest, because that would have meant adjusting their plans.

for your illness OP.

I totally agree with not giving them any choices. 'We are staying here, we have booked this already' is the way to go.

Oh I'm sorry, my big mouth.

It sounds like you have had plenty to be stressed about without having it added to by having to spend time with people you don't enjoy being with.

No, no please don't be sorry tootsie - your advice was really helpful! I wasn't upset by it at all. I'm at the point now where I've done a whole world of crying and grief and I can discuss it (most of the time) without breaking down or struggling too badly. It does help to repeat it. Like growing into a new reality.

Sorry to hear about your illness- it must be difficult to contemplate discussing your health with the ILs.

Can you just start making plans via text or email, so there's no need to engage with the wheedling? The bottom line is that it is completely impossible to work through a conversation with them, so don't even engage. You need to stop indulging this if you want anything to change.

Oh, logo

I was coming back to say that what people seem to be missing is that with this type of person there is no 'having it out' and things change - but you already said it! Everything is sounding so familiar, especially the whole oddity of it all. Whenever I see my parents I feel like I've fallen down a rabbit hole and suddenly nothing works like it should. At least with my parents, I am continually blindsided by them getting massively upset over things that hadn't even been on my radar. And yeah, the complete ignoring of health issues - I've got some health problems and I finally actually told my parents about them in the hopes of forestalling their criticisms of all the stuff they think I should have done and haven't, but unfortunately it didn't do that, only added another layer of things for them to criticise me for.

I think it makes sense to - decide yourself what you want to do - 2 days with them or 3 days in a hotel - and do it. Whatever you do, they'll complain. I've not gone down the angry route as it seems useless - it just uses up my emotional energy, makes for a poorer environment, and changes nothing. But it's worth experimenting! If it does shock them into acquiescence, you could do it. But I'd suspect it would need to be repeated every visit. I've found the endless, calm, recitation of what I'm doing without explaining back is the best, like justmy's example above. It's easier on me to be a broken record than to get all worked up.

murmuration - Yes, yes, YES to the oddness. It is like a parallel logic is at work. That's what makes it so effective. It's like entering a bubble where normal rules of logic and social interaction don't apply. And the thing is, when you come from a very different world in terms of social expectations, you're constantly making this through-the-mirror adjustment to the bonkersness of it all. I feel like I am ALWAYS on the back foot because at a deep level of social instinct, they do things that I just really don't expect because they push much further beyond the boundaries than anyone else ever does. Even though I know it's going to happen, somehow I am never prepared for exactly the way it will happen. DH and I even rehearse conversations in the car, and we do pretty well at taking and holding a line, and yet they always manage to spring something.

I'm so sorry you've been criticised for being unwell. That's so desperately unfair, and so... medieval, really, in terms of attitudes. I think for some people it is hard to comprehend anyone else having pain that they neither see nor feel, so they react with confusion and anger instead. Like an empathy failure, but turned inside out, so it becomes not just an absence of fellow-feeling but an attack. It's like an apotheosis of selfishness, really: your condition is simply in the way of their dreams, plans and self-image.

I wonder if sometimes people who are very self-centred do exist in a world where other people are merely flickering shadows rather than fully embodied beings with wishes, desires, hopes and fears of their own. In our case, there is definitely a relationship between PIL's inability to relate to us as human beings in a normal social way and this behaviour. They will go through the motions, like asking after family etc, but if the answer isn't just a neat, cheery platitude, they are absolutely stymied. They will either just ignore it and move on, as if nothing has been said, or blunder awkwardly through a conversation saying ALL of the wrong things.

Bottom line is, there's only so much repetition, only so much being a broken record I can take. By the time I'm onto the fourth or fifth round I'm tired and disspirited!

My mother behaves exactly like this. She will follow me around asking questions constantly. Often the same ones again and again. She cannot bear silence. It is absolutely exhausting. Even if you ask her to leave you alone politely 5 or 6 times in the space of 20 mins she keeps going. Until I crack and get stroppy. Then I feel horribly guilty. But she also doesn't get the normal social cues.

I've learned a few coping strategies. One is to go to bed early. 9.30pm. Often I just read and enjoy the space. Although my mother does occasionally make me get up again for ridiculous reasons. I also noticed she is worse between 5pm and 7.30pm so I avoid her then. I'm much more blunt than I used to be. If I say no and clearly mean it, if has more impact.

If anyone has any others please share!

It sounds like a bloody miserable way to spend 5 days OP. Life is too bloody short. Stick to 2 days.

"Bottom line is, there's only so much repetition, only so much being a broken record I can take. By the time I'm onto the fourth or fifth round I'm tired and disspirited!"

Which is where having your own transport and space will help you! If it gets too much, you can say, "We've been through this; frankly, I'm tired of repeating myself. We'll head off now and see you at dinner."

So glad you are looking for Xmas hotels!

Have you both considered counselling/therapy to help you deal with his parents? It might help, as the more you write the more dysfunctional they sound narcisstic, BPD.

thirdeye - DH had pretty extensive counselling about 4 years ago and it helped tremendously. It really was transformative for both of us. I think it was needed because up to that point, he'd always just done what they had asked with gritted teeth - it's only really as he got to his mid 30s that work pressures and our own little family unit (cats, not kids!), plus the increasing ridiculousness of being treated as a teen in your 30s, started to mean that decisions had to be taken.

toothfairy - I hear you on being blunt. It's about swallowing that 'normal' voice that says 'Oh no, no, no that would be RUDE' and saying 'They are now being rude in insisting, so I need to push back with some welly'.

I am going to try to explain the distinction between 'rest'/'downtime' and 'uptime'/'leisure tourism' to them as well! I think this might help because it's nice and simple and therefore hard for them deliberately not to grasp.

I have also had a quick phonecall with DH and we have agreed to keep our own car with us at all times during the next visit

Have you tried 'well in that case were not coming?'

What do you say at 4am to any question?

Seems like they treat you both as children rather than adults!

What would happen if you say on the sofa and refused to go to a museum?

I couldn't force my 11 year old or physically move him!

A lot of my bluntness has come from protecting DD or DH from both my parents. Stuff that is just non negotiable. If you think about setting clear boundaries for your DH's sake, that might make it easier.

I also use leave as an excuse a lot. You could say 'We can't get five days off for a few months. Would you like us for two or not at all?'

or tell them you are saving your leave for a reccie to New Zealand. It's nice here and much easier to say no when you are 14,000km away ;-)

Cody - I definitely will use the 'in that case we're not coming' line over Xmas arrangements. (Last year, we spent Christmas with my family, not PIL, for the first time. We tried to arrange a fake-Christmas with PIL that would be exactly the same but on a different day, slightly before the 25th. None of us are religion - in fact, DP ridicule religious people regularly for being 'silly' and 'irrational'. So it didn't seem to matter. But they sulked, refused to open presents, refused to have a Christmas lunch, and generally ruined it simply because it wasn't happening on the very day itself!)

toothfairy - I am more able to be blunt with my own parents than with them. I think it's awkward sometimes when it's not 'your' family, if you see what I mean.

I would LOVE to visit New Zealand. Was watching a documentary about it on the TV last night, with my jaw in the floor at the beauty of the place!