To think this is not such a good idea to blame me for DH's decision with PIL?

[logosthecat]

Ok some background.

PIL are difficult - DH and I both agree wholeheartedly on this, there is no argument (fwiw, BIL and his partner also agree!). However, DH loves his folks and does want to maintain some kind of relationship. Long history of domineering/bullying behaviour, DH has had counselling to deal with it. They live at the opposite end of the country.

They have been retired since their 40s (inheritance), and they don't really remember what it's like to deal with the stresses of the working week. I think they don't really understand the difference between 'rest' and 'relaxation' - that, if you're absolutely exhausted by work, the things that you might normally find relaxing, like going to nice places, can become a chore.

DH has a VERY demanding job. Long hours, lots of responsibility, lots of aggro. And it's just got worse as he's been promoted. We tend to use the weekends for rest and recuperation. However, when we visit them, it is a cacophony of noise and activity for day after day - we are literally marched around visiting places from first thing thing in the morning to last thing at night. DH is harassed and stressed and upset by this (they are also terribly insensitive, which doesn't help). He frequently becomes ill during or after the visit, and we then hobble through the following week with him going to work and returning to collapse with exhaustion in the evenings, because he hasn't had the downtime he needs. It really bites into our quality of life.

For this reason, we are trying to have shorter visits with PIL. We used to do 4-5 days 4 times a year. We are trying to see them for 1-1.5 days more frequently, every couple of months.

So here's the issue.

We are due to visit their home in August, and DH outlined to them that we'd only be spending one night (2 days). (This has been clear from the start, but they have been conveniently ignoring it to now). All hell broke loose. FIL went into full emotional blackmail mode: 'This is TERRIBLE, your mother will be terribly disappointed, she's been so excited with all the days she's got planned, we're not getting any younger' etc etc etc. We hosted them for a long weekend last month, and we also saw them at a beer festival the month before!!

DH kept his cool but framed the decision that it was pressure from me. 'I need to spend some time with my wife, I've only been staring at screens the last few weekends, and she says she wants some time for just the two of us'. This is not actually true. We agreed together that we didn't want to do the long visits, and I have not, in fact, asked for more of his time! The issue is simply with the way that they are stressful to deal with and both of us reach our limit of tolerance (beyond which we are simply gritting our teeth) at about 24 hours in their company.

AIBU to think that this is likely to lead them to dislike and blame me for the changes? And that there might be better ways of handling it, like being more honest about the actual state of affairs? (I don't mind being told I AM being unreasonable if it is a good plan, I am just not sure we are handling this as well as we could).

ppeat - I try, though I think I could often do better. I'm realising through this thread that sometimes being more firm and blunt actually does everyone a favour.

It must be tiring to have to be so diplomatic all the time in your negotiations with your DIL. It's difficult when you are feeling on form, but when you are tired or ill or have other things on your mind, it takes some real effort of will. However, I am sure the contact with your GD is not only worth it, but important for her development and future. I am sure you are a stabilising force in her life, and with an emotionally unstable parent, that could make a vast difference.

Yes true toadgirl I don't hold with that nonsense anyway, the majority of the residents in DM's warden assisted flats are no way like 40, 50 or even 60 year olds'!!

Sequential

What a fantastic post!

toadgirl - YES! You voice something important there. They HATE being quiet and by themselves. FIL has depression and anxiety, and I think the constant activity stops him thinking.

This is part of the reason why I realise we can never really have 'rest' with them, and that it would be unfair to demand total downtime of the kind that we have with my parents when we visit. When we have previously had mornings in, FIL has got in a right grump about the world - being hungover after consuming 6 pints doesn't help him either. However, given that we NEED that downtime and that rest because of the pressure of the working week, it also means we have to limit the duration of visits so that we can do their activities with them AND have our own time to re-centre ourselves and be in peace!

Oh, and on the subject of good posts- I just want to say a huge THANK YOU to everyone who has written in this thread. I've had SO much good advice, so much of it nuanced and complicated, and recognising all the grey areas that make these kinds of relationships complicated. I've gained so much from hearing the stories of other people who have been through similar and worse, and coped, and I know it must have been quite traumatic in some cases to go back there and write it all down for my benefit. I am really grateful. I was really despondent when I wrote my first post, and now I feel like I CAN handle this, that there is a way through.

Congratulations logos ! I sometimes get a bit wtf about Mumsnet but there are other times I simply LOVE it, this thread is one of those times!

Just another thought about your ILs maybe it's a fear of death?

Agree with ppeat that you sound lovely Logos and your dh is very lucky to have you batting for him.

(And btw, it was my dh who has Olympic levels of diplomacy, I just used to rant and rave and weep in the background for a long time and caused him even more stress I'm afraid . But as you say, one matures with time, and one does acquire the skills to to deal with these situations more calmly and if not productively, then at least one learns to "hold the line". I am sure your dh will reach that point given time, but it does have to come from him I'm afraid.)

I do think your dh needs to make a stand (it will have more impact coming from him) and distance himself a little and protect you more in doing so. Your fil sounds like a bully and I know how complicated these relationships are, but your dh is inadvertently feeding the situation by giving his parents information to work on. As you know, it is absolutely no business of theirs how often you and your dh choose to visit your parents. Don't tell them.

I think your dh may have to read this thread I'm afraid. As Ppeat¨says, the penny will eventually drop that lines have been crossed and your good will and intentions are being taken advantage of. It is going to be very, very difficult for your dh to extricate himself from his parents "love"/approval/involvement but your lives will be miserable if you don't.

Dh and I have managed to stick together through thick and thin but believe me there have been times, the financial situation aside, when the situation with his family nearly caused huge ructions between us, particularly when hurt was caused to my family as a result of the pils utterly unreasonable behaviour.

Although I know it sounds unnatural and uncomfortable, I think rehearsing conversations in advance is a good idea (and perhaps getting some professional counselling for your dh - apologies - I can't remember if you have done this or not) might be a good idea too.

I'm not someone who would automatically consider talking therapies but I went to see a license pyschologist about how to deal with my mil (which incidentally helped me deal with a rather over-bearing boss I had at the time too!) and it was immensely helpful. There were no specific strategies to follow as such but it bolstered my self-confidence and sense of self (which had been lost rather in the maelstrom) and it resulted in me feeling much less apologetic, much less guilty and gave me "permission" to make a stand.

I'm lucky in that my dh has always to an extent (since he was 15 or so) had to mitigate and resolve the difficult situations caused by my mil's behaviour and she in a sense relied on him to do so (as pil did nothing). So he was able to keep me protected (to a degree) from the worst of her antics (although not when he was physically outside the country!).

And in a sense it may be (but not always!) easier in a mother-son relationship for the son to break away somewhat (something my sil was unable to do) and take a stand. Far harder for your dh perhaps to dig his heels in with regard to his father, but it is the only solution. And it can be achieved whilst maintaining dignity, politeness and (to an extent) kindness as long are firm boundaries are maintained.

Good luck to your dh op!

ppeat - I'm sure that mortality is part of the equation. The behaviour worsened noticeably after MIL lost GFIL.

There is also something in there about getting stuff done, not being able to throw anything away, not being able to make positive decisions about change to allow them to cope with what is coming with maximum dignity and quality of life. They are full of activity, but almost none of it is practical, which makes me think that the activity is more of a distraction than anything else.

[And apologies for the essay! ]

x post op

I'm so glad that you have found this thread helpful! You explained your situation very fairly and eloquently and I think posters always respond v well to that!

I had very little idea that people were going through similar issues when I was having difficulties; Mnset is brilliant in these situations!

sequential - I've done my share of crying and raging too! Especially at the start, where I didn't realise how impossible a position I was creating for my DH putting him 'between' me and his parents. Nowadays I understand more that it is unfair and puts DH under pressure, and that the decision needs to be made by both of us as a team, and we discuss things at a more practical and less emotional level. But I'd be lying if I said I'd always coped with a sunny smile.

It's interesting what you say about gender mattering! I do think the dynamic works as a 'team' - MIL is good cop/suffering victim and FIL tends to present every decision not to stay with them for a full week as 'You are hurting your mother'. I think there's also something gendered going on with me, because I notice a marked difference between how I am treated and how BIL's partner is treated, who is gay. He doesn't get anything like the constant level of criticism or infantilisation that I get. A lot of it comes in a gendered form: it's my cooking, my gardening, my self-presentation that are constantly made a joke of. Even if I do really well with a meal (and I'm not a great cook, but sometimes accidents happen and it turns out OK!) she will pick on the one thing that isn't quite right and make a joke about it. Similarly, I have a lovely garden (if I do say so myself ) and she will find the one thing that maybe isn't doing so well and point it out. BIL's partner is spared a lot of that. It makes me wonder if, at some subliminal level, she sees this as a competition or something.

I do find it undermining, and I will think about what you say about counselling quite seriously. I've had a lot of knocks lately, especially with the infertility, and it perhaps wouldn't hurt to shore up my sense of self a bit. It helped DH absolutely no end - I can honestly say that a counsellor really helped our marriage because it gave him that same 'permission' you speak of to tackle his parents. I think it also helped his career, in terms of confidence, and if I am right about that, it has paid for itself many times over.

I will speak to him about the phonecalls. I think he will understand the issue pretty much straight away, as I'm sure he's noticed the problem too.

So pleased this thread is helpful for you, OP. More and more is so familiar - on the plane back from our last visit I actually told my DH that it's clear they want to see us, but why do they make it so hard? Almost everything they do seems calculated to make it a horrible time, but I guess it's just trying to control everything, including me, and make me stay with them.

Also denial about the future and aging - in their mid-60s my parents purchased a three level house that is accessed one story up. What were they thinking? My mother was already having a bit of trouble with stairs at that point, and 10 years later now has to plan her days carefully to avoid too much up and down. And on the main level the toilet even has a random, extra staircase too it. As far as I can tell, they've still got no plans for relocation, but at some point the problem is going to become acute.

When they've got all these plans and you've told them you need to rest, ad don't want to go anywhere, what happens if you say something like "Okay, then, have a nice time this morning. We'll meet you at lunch and visit X in the afternoon with you."? That's the sort of thing I've had to do, signing up to 'some' stuff but also carving out the rest time.

murmuration - how odd that they chose that house! It's almost like denial acted out as practice, isn't it? I wonder if this isn't quite common. It's strange.

And I think you've nailed it on the control. It's meant to bring you closer to them, but by a kind of act of absorption. By denying your individuality and refusing to listen to you, it actually does the opposite - it feels like you are being rudely ignored, even erased. I sometimes jokingly describe is as being assimilated into the Borg. It feels like that sometimes!

(But resistance, in my case, will NOT be futile!)

logos Reading your comments on how hurtful you find your MIL's approach to you. Maybe there needs to be work done on you own self esteem (sorry for the 'pop' psychology ) but if you valued yourself more, then possibly you could withstand the criticism? Also see it for what it is; an insecure unhappy woman who's jealous of your youth and your relationship with her son.

MIL: haha, your bread rolls could be used as a weapon!
YOU: mil, I need you to notice something good about the meal I've just made, do you think you could do that?
MIL: shame your gladioli are so tall they're falling over haha
YOU: mil, I need you to say something nice about my garden. I've worked hard on it.
MIL: haha you look like a bag lady in that coat!
YOU: mil, I need you to find something nice about my appearance to say or just not say anything, otherwise you might hurt my feelings. You don't want to do that do you?
Etc

I think it would help ppeat. Though I suspect that, even at my most confident ever, five days of sustained criticism would be too much! It really is that 90% of the things she says are criticisms - I know because I decided that last time she was up (a few weeks ago), I'd count them as a way of playing a game in my head that would give me something else to do than listen to it!

It's odd, I go from ignoring it (first 24 hours), to finding it funny and frustrating in equal measure (48 hours), to feeling hurt (72 hours) and wanting to get out of there.

fantastic - I have a problem with appearing vulnerable. This is very much my bad, a sign of my insecurity and not my strength. So the idea of saying 'I need you to say something nice' fills me with horror. I feel that I can say 'I need a rest' or 'I need some time alone now' but not 'I need you to say nice things to me'. Because somehow that last one feels more exposed. (I also never celebrate my birthday with friends because I am scared no-one will come, in spite of the fact that my friends are lovely and I'm pretty sure would never do that). I realise this is my issue!! Should I just get over it?

Ah, logos, your reaction to the criticisms shows the difference between a lifetime of it and encountering it just now. Both my parents are like that (you've got an interesting game there, I might try it next time :) or it might be too depressing.) Basically, I have a very strong internal belief that anything my parents say doesn't really matter, so, while it is exhausting to be constantly criticised, it doesn't really make much of an impact. Anything they say is like water off a duck's back. It hurts, but in the same way the entire fact that my parents don't really seem to care for me as a human being hurts, not that any particular criticism hits home. It even takes me a while now to remember any individual criticism from my recent 6-day visit, despite the fact that nearly everything they said was one, because I just believe it's unimportant and forget it as soon as I hear it.

I'm not sure how to engage with it as a new thing: is there a way you can cultivate a detached view? See it as yattering words without meaning? (which is basically how I approach it) Or, fantastic's suggestion, or what about the MN classic response of "Did you mean to be so rude?"

I'm struggling to articulate how it makes me feel.

It's not that individual pieces of criticism hurt. It's more that I arrive, and my sense of self is quite robust and intact. And then they start bulldozing and ignoring what I say. And MIL starts to criticise. And it's like I wear thin. Or maybe more like a battery, my sense of self is gradually drained of charge.

I'm OK for the first few hours. I barely register the criticism, and I feel able to occupy space. But then I start to tire, and I get this creeping sense of what I can only describe as something like a social version of claustrophobia. I feel like I'm being bulldozed, erased, not listened to, forced into a mould that I don't 'fit' and that is too confined for me. I am a combination of frustrated, bored, hurt and - somehow - also panicked (how can you be bored and panicked at the same time?) I feel like my life is draining away, like I can't control anything. I try to push back and restate boundaries, but it is more exhausting to do so now. After a further day of this, I will start to feel actively upset and have a real sense that I have to get out at almost any cost. It is this feeling that I am VERY eager to take off the table by having short visits in future.

DH is similar - it is at this point that he goes livid white and starts vomiting!

Neither of us is like this with anyone else. While we are introverted and will be tired and in need of space after a weekend of dealing with friends or other family, it is not the same feeling at all.

logos neglected to mention earlier that the gender issue is very interesting. I could never figure it out. My mil was a pioneer career-wise in her day - a formidable professional presence (before it all went belly up, twice) who made every decision for her family and was absolutely "in charge" - who yet had purportedly extremely old-fashioned views when it came to feminism and "a woman's place", when they applied to other women other than herself of course and especially me!

I would imagine (although this of course is pure speculation) that your mil, who is bullied by your fil, finds it "empowering" to harness your fil's anger/control towards you and your dh (a bit of relief for her when the bullying is directed at someone else other than herself) and to basically dish out what she has been subjected to herself over many years.

As for the constant undermining in relation to domestic issues; I suffered the same thing from my mil. In some ways, even though I was so lacking in confidence at the time, I was able to shake it off because it was so patently ludicrous (and so obviously an attempt to gain the upper hand in some way) and in some ways I didn't take it personally because I knew that whoever had deigned to "take her son away from her" as she saw it, could never hope to be treated in a civilised manner.

In other ways though of course it was tremendously hurtful (we had the same thing at Christmas one year because I had served one meal at a different time/with different dishes than she had dictated suggested and she literally turned her back to the table and refused to participate throughout).

And thankfully because, when she was on form, she tended not to be too overt in her criticism, her jibes either went over my head, or I was too thick (!) or too stressed or too tired (having tried to meet their long list of catering demands) to fully comprehend what she was trying to say until I thought about it afterwards! Which was a blessing in disguise really!

May I ask, does your dh come to your defense when he overhears your mil criticising you? (Mine always did thankfully and picked her up on it but she was usually quite clever about it and reserved the worst of her malice for when dh was away working.) Anyway, it is important that your dh defends you loudly and clearly when the undermining happens (and vice versa) and that you present a united front.

If I may say, I think it is good that you do not wish to appear vulnerable. Although those tactics might work in different situations, in this particular set of circumstances I would definitely not be explicit about 'needing' anything from them, as that will feed in to their own sense of importance I fear.

Murmuration I hate to say it but it rings alarm bells when you talk about your parents buying a house that is totally impractical for old age. My pils did this in relation to finance and, I'm afraid in their case, once the worst had happened (bankruptcy), they did everything they possibly could to make the situation worse and more difficult, and looking back I think it was a deliberate policy of "helplessness" to cause dh to still have to engage with them further.

Oh yy to did you mean to be so rude

How about "did you know, that's the 10th thing you've criticised in the last hour? Is there anything you've seen you do like..?"

x post Logos poor you and your dh. I can totally identify with the sapping away of strength and the feeling of claustrophia and panic (classic fight/flight response!). I remember going to the bathroom in pils apartment and having to stick my head out (in -2°c temp) to breathe and try and calm myself. It got to the point when, after trying and trying, I just couldn't do it any more. I can see why you are so protective of your dh when all of this is having such a destructive and visceral effect on him. I think it would help him (and you) though if he could possibly draw up a few protective barriers around himself.

I am staggered at your MIL's behaviour over Christmas sequential . Staggered!! And also at the post-bankruptcy irresponsibility. It must have been infuriating for you and your family to deal with. I honestly wouldn't know how to start coping with someone who was behaving in such a self-destructive yet selfish manner.

It sounds like you have had a lot more overt nastiness to deal with than I have. In our case, it's always presented as 'nicely intentioned' - for instance, the criticism is always presented as a joke. That makes it hard for me to come back with upset or hurt, because I look oversensitive or huffy (even though PIL are the huffiest mchuffsters in mchuffistan if even the slightest breath of criticism is offered towards them). I feel like it's an assertion of their 'adulthood' and an attempt to place me in the role of a child - it is not remotely accidental that it is only my failings that are singled out for this humour, never the things I've done well or that make me look independent or competent (and the irony is that I am both of those things)! I have occasionally been spoken to like a child in those moments (I mean speaking with exaggerated slowness when delivering advice), which makes the power relations at work more obvious.

I think DH also struggles to know how to react. In some ways, we probably need to do much better at taking offence on each other's behalf, as that allows the person affected to be protected without having to react. Teamwork is so important.

Believe it or not we laugh about the Christmas "incident" now (and many others!) Just mentioning this to give you hope Logos because you will emerge on the other side of this one day and be able to breathe

That was more of an "overt" incident I suppose but it was couched in terms of "I want to continue watching this film" rather than "I refuse to turn around because that would entail having to give in gracefully when I have made my feelings clear about this meal".

You have my full sympathies though criticism is much harder to deal with when presented as an attempt at humour or an attempt to offer "helpful" advice.

The infantilisation (and all of their behaviours in fact) are , boiled down, attempts to control.

You represent an extra strong threat because your dh's first loyalty is to you, you are an outsider who doesn't necessarily have to conform to their skewed view of the world and the way they live, and you can be slightly more objective about the situation because they don't have the same emotional power over you that they have over your dh . (Not that you feel more removed from it of course!)

And of course it is a very clever and complex strategy because- consciously or unconsciously they are playing on the fact that you are aware that they are getting older and like any polite/sensitive dil you want to be respectful and do not wish to emphasise that fact.

I think the only way to regain a measure of peace of mind (and health) is to assert a little more control for yourselves, put in place well defined boundaries and perhaps (in this instance although I usually think letter writing is a terribly bad idea) write them a clear, simple note explaining why you are unable to come and see them so often and why you will be staying in a hotel when you do so. Could you perhaps harness the experience of your bil's partner and see what strategies he has put in place to manage the situation?

Wishing you both courage and determination op!

Ah ok fair enough OP, totally understandable. I'm trying to think up things for you to say even though I have no success rate myself! I have no contact with my own mother and haven't for many many years because she's a narcissist, an emotional abuser, very critical (she does it for sport) and malicious with it, so I never stood a chance. My two lovely DBs however are still in the fold and their dw's have to deal with her. Like your DH I used to get actually ill over it. But your DH has made the decision to keep going and trying to 'manage' them, so you are in a similar position to my Sil's. (Though I realise he doesn't think they are malicious) My DBs are in their 40s and 50s and are only just now understanding that what we all suffered was emotional abuse, and they are both now in therapy. The one thing they both do however, is stick up for their dws and dcs, and then there are terrible raging rows. I thank my lucky stars I got out when I did and have allowed myself to live a life of freedom from this bullshit. My DBs admit good naturedly that they are jealous of my position. But they couldn't live with their consciences if they took the same route as me. Luckily they understand why I have taken it and don't (now) criticise me for it.

I could also not have said those 'I need' things to my mother as she wouldn't have given two hoots what I need and would have taken the piss and belittled me. BUT I also have a step-mother who is ridiculously critical (but has many good points too) and I am able to be 'distantly amused' - as she's not my mother so I don't need her approval. It doesn't matter to me iyswim. I just grin and change the subject if she starts.

I do like Did you mean to be so rude? - but have never had the opportunity to say it to anyone. Would have loved to have said that to my M, but it would have been a drop in the Ocean.

Fantastic