To think this is not such a good idea to blame me for DH's decision with PIL?

[logosthecat]

Ok some background.

PIL are difficult - DH and I both agree wholeheartedly on this, there is no argument (fwiw, BIL and his partner also agree!). However, DH loves his folks and does want to maintain some kind of relationship. Long history of domineering/bullying behaviour, DH has had counselling to deal with it. They live at the opposite end of the country.

They have been retired since their 40s (inheritance), and they don't really remember what it's like to deal with the stresses of the working week. I think they don't really understand the difference between 'rest' and 'relaxation' - that, if you're absolutely exhausted by work, the things that you might normally find relaxing, like going to nice places, can become a chore.

DH has a VERY demanding job. Long hours, lots of responsibility, lots of aggro. And it's just got worse as he's been promoted. We tend to use the weekends for rest and recuperation. However, when we visit them, it is a cacophony of noise and activity for day after day - we are literally marched around visiting places from first thing thing in the morning to last thing at night. DH is harassed and stressed and upset by this (they are also terribly insensitive, which doesn't help). He frequently becomes ill during or after the visit, and we then hobble through the following week with him going to work and returning to collapse with exhaustion in the evenings, because he hasn't had the downtime he needs. It really bites into our quality of life.

For this reason, we are trying to have shorter visits with PIL. We used to do 4-5 days 4 times a year. We are trying to see them for 1-1.5 days more frequently, every couple of months.

So here's the issue.

We are due to visit their home in August, and DH outlined to them that we'd only be spending one night (2 days). (This has been clear from the start, but they have been conveniently ignoring it to now). All hell broke loose. FIL went into full emotional blackmail mode: 'This is TERRIBLE, your mother will be terribly disappointed, she's been so excited with all the days she's got planned, we're not getting any younger' etc etc etc. We hosted them for a long weekend last month, and we also saw them at a beer festival the month before!!

DH kept his cool but framed the decision that it was pressure from me. 'I need to spend some time with my wife, I've only been staring at screens the last few weekends, and she says she wants some time for just the two of us'. This is not actually true. We agreed together that we didn't want to do the long visits, and I have not, in fact, asked for more of his time! The issue is simply with the way that they are stressful to deal with and both of us reach our limit of tolerance (beyond which we are simply gritting our teeth) at about 24 hours in their company.

AIBU to think that this is likely to lead them to dislike and blame me for the changes? And that there might be better ways of handling it, like being more honest about the actual state of affairs? (I don't mind being told I AM being unreasonable if it is a good plan, I am just not sure we are handling this as well as we could).

DeadGood - I didn't think your posts were brusque at all, especially compared with some of the vitriol on here. I think it's really interesting to compare views

Another idea...can you relate stories to them about 'people you know' who simply will not listen? "Oh mil, I've got this friend who I'm very fond of but she always wants to do things her own way, and she doesn't care about other people's point of view one jot! Don't you hate it when people are so interested in themselves the whole time? Do you know anyone like that?' (Maybe a bit pointless if she really won't listen)

You need a few phrases up your sleeve that cannot be argued with - That doesn't work for us. Leaving on Tuesday works better for us. I need I need to go under my own steam. I need to take my car so if I want to leave earlier or stay longer I can. I need to go to bed now. I need to stop talking about this now. I need to leave now. I need you to listen. We need a siesta. DH needs a rest so he is safe to operate on people's brains/hearts/vital organs.

Also agree to not having a conversation about not having dcs. Why would you if you don't have to? If they ever bring it up then say you won't be having any and are far too upset ever to talk about it. I need you to respect that request.

Another few suggestions to add to your arsenal:

"PIL we are having a weekend visit to x in y hotel if you would like to join is?"

Any moaning about not coming for 5 days "Shall we not bother coming at all then?"

Evenings out to only be a cab distance away so either you or they can get a cab back so you can have a much earlier night.

They are pretty awful

It's lovely they want to spend time with you. They obviously are trying to entertain you so you don't get bored. I think you need to have an honest discussion and tell them you get tired.

"It's lovely they want to spend time with you. "

No, it isn't. They want the OP and her DP to be their puppy dogs to come to what they want, without listening to them.

Waking them up with random questions is not being lovely.

Thinking about this . Our ex dil is a bit like this. I now deal with her by text. I TELL her when I'm coming to babysit and when I'm going. No arguments . Of course it will be around the dates that she needs me but trying to arrange anything with her is almost impossible, she changes according to her mood.

Ppeat, that sounds annoying, but isn't that more like flakiness than the OP's case, where the ILs want her and DP to do what they are told without care for their needs?

I didn't go into details, Jaquetta but she is a narc., it's more than flakiness. I have to listen to her raging about ds. She doesn't think anyone is as important as her. I feel bad for our gd.

YANBU

My DH used to try this type if thing as we had a v similar situation even down to PIL retiring v early and having no understanding of working life - he was always hiding behind me for excuses or if I had any issue with them /their demands he would always imply to PIL it was all really my fault because "X doesn't understand" rather than just saying he thought their expectations wrong or unreasonable. Again giving the false impression that he would be delighted to go along with every ridiculous demand from them but it was just that I wouldn't/couldn't

In the end I just left it to him - if your DH has no problem let him do several days a month with them on his own - don't let it be your never ending problem

Ugh, ppeat, sorry to hear that

Isn't it a recognised phenomenon that older people need less sleep and want to wake up at odd hours of the night?

Whatever the cause, you need a full night's sleep so a hotel is in order!

Yes, I believe that is a medical thing about people tending to need less sleep as they get older, maybe.

I do feel that some of this is age-related. I'm not in any way saying that all older people are like this - I know many, many, many who are not. I am one of those people who has quite a few friends who are 30 or 40 years older than me. I don't really think of them as 'older people' - they're just friends. So I'm absolutely not seeking to generalise about all older people here. But I do think that PIL are choosing to age in a way that is full of denial and problems, and that this is a big part of the issues.

MIL constantly says "70 is the new 40!". I think that's true of some people - but not them. FIL is going severely deaf, and hobbles with a walking stick looking about 85 rather than 70 (no exaggeration) but we all have to pretend like this is just 'normal' and there is nothing that needs addressing. Yet this constant repetition, "70 is the new 40! 70 is the new 40!" makes me think that what i'm hearing is the process of denial itself: the natural, normal fear of ageing, and the moment where that fear is pushed down and repressed so that things can continue without adjustment. What would be better would be if they could look their own situation in the face sensibly and make adjustments - like buying a hearing aid when FIL is clearly going deaf, and like creating a space in their house where they could install more mobility aids, which are now increasingly a matter of daily necessity.

BIZARRELY - and here's the strange bit - instead of doing these things themselves, they keep insisting that we take action on age-related things! So we are having an extension built some time soon (probably next year), and MIL is insisting that we put in age-related mobility aids like neon edging on paving, rails on steps etc. This is NOT because they want an age-proof house when they visit but because they think WE need it. Our house is on a slope and the new extension involves 3 steps on the ground floor down into a sunken area. MIL is insisting that these steps, which have been nicely designed in oak, should be edged with yellow neon dayglo strips 'because DH might fall down them otherwise'. Of course, we're not going to do what she says. But it seems strange to me that she is seeking to displace all the things she ought to be doing on her own house onto ours, which is hundreds of miles away! When I said 'No, we're not putting dayglo strips in our new modernist lounge, I hope such things won't be necessary for another 30 years or so', and we then had the regulation 10 minutes of her insisting that they were important for our safety NOW and me being a broken record!

I think this shows two things: 1. The strange way that repressed fears will come out sometimes. 2. The total lack of empathy, where they can't understand that, generally, what is appropriate for a 70 yr old couple and what is needed by a 40 yr old couple are different things.

ppeat - I'm really sorry about your daughter. It sounds like you're dealing with a tough situation with admirable diplomacy and tact. Your DIL might not appreciate it, but she's lucky to have you.

fantastic - I LOVE 'I need'. I think it's simple and elegant, and I do think it'll work. Will definitely be giving this a go in a couple of weeks.

lymmm - Not all older people forget how draining the working week is, but PIL definitely have! Sorry to hear about your DH, that sounds really tough for you, and frustrating always to be the one who has to take the blame. I don't mind a little bit of that where it releases pressure, but I do think it would be better long term if we could have a frank but kind discussion of the issues. In the long run, just because of how they are and the busyness of our lives, there is simply no way we will be able to do the 5-day visits again. I do hope that seeing them for shorter periods 6 times a year or so will work instead. This will probably be a mixture of 3 x 2 day weekends and a number of 'catchups', e.g. piggybacking on their visits to BIL (100 miles away) so we can all go out for Sunday lunch together.

Your mil can't insist on stuff for your extension. She can witter on with her ideas but it's your house and money and you ignore her and do what you both want to do. Also don't involve her in the discussions. When we had an extension all our parents knew was that we were having an extension and where it was. Be vague about what you are having done and ignore their opinions in the same way they would ignore your opinions on their home improvements.
I think the second Christmas thing was never going to work and was treating them like children.
Staying at hotels and taking your own car sounds good. You also need to feed back when they are being bullies

Oh, she definitely won't have her way over the extension - that goes without saying and is a non-issue. What I find weird, annoying, hilarious, frustrating is the inability to see that our situation and theirs are quite different.

Totally agree with optimist on this one -you really need to bite the bullet or they will only get worse, trying to cram even more stuff into even shorter visits to make up for restricted time! Whilst I can understand the hold they have over your husband, as you are already being blamed for stuff (regardless of reasons) then you have little to lose by being brutally honest. I think you can sugar the pill by explaining the background to it all (husband very tired, gets ill with stress etc) but you definitely need to ensure that the message " a visit would mean far more to us and be more pleasurable for us if we could just relax and spend time with you at home" . They prob honestly believe they are showing their enthusiasm and keenness for your visit by pre-booking all these activities and taking you all these places, but might actually be quite relieved to have a bit of downtime themselves! Really, you can't expect them to mind read!!

busymom - I have covered that in a previous update (but I've done so many updates, no-one could possibly be expected to read them all!) We HAVE told them we want peace and quiet, sleep, downtime. They don't adjust the behaviour accordingly! They nod, smile and then continue in exactly the same way!

Are you sure that the age related improvements to your house aren't because they intend to move in with you? Then it would be true that they need not do anything to their own home if they are moving in with you when they become frail.

I would regardless ensure that you and your DH are on the same page as to what happens to his parents as they age. If he is doing so well at work and it seems like a big deal has been made out of this, be clear on what they see your future role as.
You do seem lovely and super tolerant of them, just don't let your niceness sleepwalk you into a situation you don't want.

YANBU to think him blaming you is unfair. However your ILs sound like a complete and utter nightmare.

I have similar issues with mine but not to the same extent. Mine used to line up "jobs" for DH, no thought that he has a full time long hours job or that really it just takes up time. They are also very good at making out they are trying to do you a favour but really it is for their benefit.

My way of dealing with them is to reduce their control and ability to control. For you I would definitely tell them "we have booked into x hotel" don't give them the chance to argue or control. If you are under their roof you are under their control.

Re adoption / foster. It is a long hard stressful process but the end result will be worth it. Personally I would not tell them until you have to. They will just add to your stress.
Good luck.

I meant to add re-extension. Do not modify it to suit them. They are trying to make out the disability requirements are for your benefit but really it is for them "oh that's marvellous, we could just move in" and before you know where you are they are in your house. Which is now their house with their rules.

Just stumbled across this thread.

You have my full and heartfelt sympathy logosthecat

I am (literally) having hot and cold flushes reading this thread because it is bringing back such awful memories of my relationship with my pils [now late pils]. It was my mil who was the highly intelligent manipulative bully in our case though and pil passively followed. And sil enabled.

My dh also has a demanding professional career and a senior position using skills honed from having to deal with the adversity and trauma (and I use that word advisedly!) that his upbringing caused him.

Similarly, the "mischief-making" was caused by a highly intelligent woman, sitting idle with time on her hands, having failed in her career ambitions (she'd had early success when managed by others, and near spectacular success when she'd set up on her own, but ultimately no one could tolerate her unreasonable behaviour and work under her successfully, so two ventures ended in bankruptcy) which led to her being financially dependent on her offspring (always a difficult dynamic but virtually intolerable in these circs) and deeply unhappy and blaming her passive husband for her troubles (when no man with any independence or gumption could have tolerated her either). Hence her trying to exert control over every one else when and where she could.

[I am being slightly unfair here as she did have some very good qualities as well but sadly they were overshadowed by the blackmailing, bullying and emotional guilt-tripping.] Such a shame as I was desperate to have a good and fulfilling relationship with my in-laws but sadly it wasn't to be .

Anyway, anyway, I could write chapters on this subject and honestly half of you would think I was making up some of the incidences and upsets that dh and I have had to endure over the years but suffice to say:

• you and your dh op (especially your dh!) with the greatest of respect because you are decent people who operate with "normal sensitivity radars" instead of batty ones, are giving your pils too much power/influence and control over your lives and your lives are too intertwined (despite the long distance/infrequent visits). As events have shown, you need to put more distance between you I'm afraid.

My advice would be: take control, distance yourself, withdraw except on your terms, don't explain, never ask for permission, calmly put in boundaries, explain your intentions in simple sentences using an active sentence structure, and stick to your guns.

I am afraid it is the only way. As others have said, trying to please them or reason with them is never going to work. So don't attempt it any more.

My mil used to enter our house and say "oh it is lovely to be back in my home". I didn't at the time (I was young and passive and too much of a people pleaser then) but now I would say politely, "you are very welcome but to be clear it is our home not yours". Obviously, don't let your mil have any say over your extension. Don't ignore comments but respond clearly and calmly (using active not passive sentences) "dh and I will make any decisions about our home ourselves".

I am very sorry to hear that you and your dh can't have dc op and that you have been so ill .

I hope it is not insensitive to mention this but dh and I had infertility issues for years and received the same disapproving comments about adoption/fostering etc. Eventually, after many years and three mc, we managed to have one child. That child in a sense gave us the strength to stand up to mil definitively. We had swallowed so much hurtful and frankly outrageous behaviour up to that point, but the day mil tried her manipulation on our child (on their seventh birthday) was the time I finally drew a line in the sand. (It is easier to put boundaries in place to protect others rather than ourselves though I think!) From that point on, dh made "duty visits", we supported them financially but we distanced ourselves as a family. I didn't visit again. Sadly, it was necessary.

So go ahead with your fostering plans. Don't discuss it with them. Just go ahead. You don't need their approval. You are adults. Make your own plans and keep them to yourselves.

In summary:-
-give up any idea of ever having a remotely normal relationship with them with normal limits and boundaries (this is a tough one!)

• stick together and support one another (as you are already doing)

-go ahead with your plans without discussion or seeking approval or permission -put in firm boundaries -distance yourself

Good luck op !!

No, there is no way they intend to move in with us. They live in the south west, and we live in the north. They hate the north. They lived up here for a couple of years before FIL retired due to a job change and MIL cannot stand it. It's mainly snobbery - she thinks the people lack class, etc. etc.

They actually think that we need fluorescent strips on our stairs because they need fluorescent strips on theirs. Seriously.

sequential - I am so, so grateful for you taking the time to tell me about your experience. It does sound really similar! However, your MIL sounds highly intelligent, and thus more difficult 'dangerous' than my PIL who are passive-aggressive rather than aggressive-aggressive. The comment about her being 'in her home' while in your house leaves be gobsmacked. I cannot even imagine how hard it must have been for your DH and any siblings to be financially responsible for a woman like that. What a total nightmare. You must both have Olympic-level skills in diplomacy, tact and holding a line.

I think you are right about telling them less and creating distance. DH rings every week at the same time, and he discusses our lives quite openly with them. I think we need to be much more guarded, because it all comes back at us in a twisted and deformed way. For example, FIL last week had a go at DH on the grounds that we'd recently paid a visit to my parents. We've seen my parents once in the last 3 months, and we've seen PIL three times. What is more, the visit to my parents was of identical length to the 2-day visit we are planning with PIL. (It's just that my parents are a lot less of a faff to deal with - still mad and on their own planet, mind, but much more relaxed!). So it is a bonkers comparison for them to draw, but the result of them knowing far too much about our lives. I am not sure how I reign DH in on this - it is something we have discussed previously, but I think he tends to panic when actually in the situation. Perhaps rehearsing some topics that are 'safe' and neutral might help.

I think it's so interesting what you say about your DH having a skill set because of the way he was brought up. I feel this very strongly about my DH too. It's hard to express, because he is at once a victim of their behaviour and a beneficiary, and I don't want the beneficial side of the equation to sound like it is in some way 'cancelling out' the negative or diminishing it. It doesn't, because it's not like they are in some kind of balance with each other. It is more like it is both things at once. I imagine that something similar is true of the skills you developed. I wonder if putting your foot down when your child was affected was partly maternal protection, but also partly the fact that you'd learned in that time how to handle her (though you are too modest to claim this!) We keep acquiring skills as adults too, I guess!

Thank you for those kind words Jaquetta

And logos You sound lovely Your in laws don't know how lucky they are with you being so understanding.

But there is understanding and being taken advantage of (I've only recently realised that myself). Our dil is an emotionally damaged person and I try to remember that, it's difficult! I certainly wouldn't have any contact with her if it wasn't for our darling GD.

MIL constantly says "70 is the new 40!". I think that's true of some people - but not them. Yet this constant repetition, "70 is the new 40! 70 is the new 40!" makes me think that what i'm hearing is the process of denial itself

It certainly sounds like it.

Their relentless GO, GO, GO! lifestyle and partying and up-all-night attitudes seem to spring from a deep fear of just being quiet with themselves.