To think this is not such a good idea to blame me for DH's decision with PIL?

[logosthecat]

Ok some background.

PIL are difficult - DH and I both agree wholeheartedly on this, there is no argument (fwiw, BIL and his partner also agree!). However, DH loves his folks and does want to maintain some kind of relationship. Long history of domineering/bullying behaviour, DH has had counselling to deal with it. They live at the opposite end of the country.

They have been retired since their 40s (inheritance), and they don't really remember what it's like to deal with the stresses of the working week. I think they don't really understand the difference between 'rest' and 'relaxation' - that, if you're absolutely exhausted by work, the things that you might normally find relaxing, like going to nice places, can become a chore.

DH has a VERY demanding job. Long hours, lots of responsibility, lots of aggro. And it's just got worse as he's been promoted. We tend to use the weekends for rest and recuperation. However, when we visit them, it is a cacophony of noise and activity for day after day - we are literally marched around visiting places from first thing thing in the morning to last thing at night. DH is harassed and stressed and upset by this (they are also terribly insensitive, which doesn't help). He frequently becomes ill during or after the visit, and we then hobble through the following week with him going to work and returning to collapse with exhaustion in the evenings, because he hasn't had the downtime he needs. It really bites into our quality of life.

For this reason, we are trying to have shorter visits with PIL. We used to do 4-5 days 4 times a year. We are trying to see them for 1-1.5 days more frequently, every couple of months.

So here's the issue.

We are due to visit their home in August, and DH outlined to them that we'd only be spending one night (2 days). (This has been clear from the start, but they have been conveniently ignoring it to now). All hell broke loose. FIL went into full emotional blackmail mode: 'This is TERRIBLE, your mother will be terribly disappointed, she's been so excited with all the days she's got planned, we're not getting any younger' etc etc etc. We hosted them for a long weekend last month, and we also saw them at a beer festival the month before!!

DH kept his cool but framed the decision that it was pressure from me. 'I need to spend some time with my wife, I've only been staring at screens the last few weekends, and she says she wants some time for just the two of us'. This is not actually true. We agreed together that we didn't want to do the long visits, and I have not, in fact, asked for more of his time! The issue is simply with the way that they are stressful to deal with and both of us reach our limit of tolerance (beyond which we are simply gritting our teeth) at about 24 hours in their company.

AIBU to think that this is likely to lead them to dislike and blame me for the changes? And that there might be better ways of handling it, like being more honest about the actual state of affairs? (I don't mind being told I AM being unreasonable if it is a good plan, I am just not sure we are handling this as well as we could).

Normal levels of bluntness/ awkwardness/ rudeness don't apply here though - you and your DH are trying to use socially acceptable methods of communication with your in-laws, but this won't even register with them as their communication methods and sense of social boundaries are so exaggerated.

Would it help to view it as adapting your communication in order to be on their wavelength, rather than feeling blunt / rude? After all, you'd adapt your speech patterns / volume for people with a hearing impairment - if your inlaws are unable or unwilling to comprehend regular social norms, then you'd be helping them by being exceptionally direct and unyielding.

Good idea to keep your car at all times. Being on the same page as your husband is hugely important.

OP I have been there with FIL lucky for me every one else who knows him knows it too. He is a nightmare and an absolute bulldozer but you still have to manage it. I have started an out and out row with him over his treatment of MIL because he is an abusive fucker too, an awful lot of the time and I am not willing to let his appalling behaviour continue and me appear to condone it. Yet we still maintain a relationship, the fecker has some bizarre twisted personality where the more I tell him off for behaving reprehensibly the more he wants attention from me. Uuuugh.

For your situation though I still say no engaging and saying progressively more forceful nos is the way to go. To be honest your DH and are not seeing your roles in this dynamic. You are facilitating this by:
A) Being there for extended periods of time even though you don't want to go
B) Not calling them out for repeatedly undermining you even if they are being passive aggressive. Tell them 'you are being PA by repeatedly doing xxxxx'
C) Not leaving when they are completely out of line and telling them why you are going. 'Your behaviour where you continuously undermine what we say to you is unacceptable to us so we are going home'

Communication is a two way thing, even this bulldozing behaviour needs someone willing to put up with it to succeed. You cannot change them, you need to change yourselves.

Best of luck.

I think staying in a hotel would be a big improvement for you. For a start you would need to be in your room by 'midnight' or whatever you claim the hotel demands.
It makes a big difference to staying away I think. I am thinking of a nice hotel BTw. So your choice of tv, you can have a lingering bath in the evening, get up at 8/8.30 quiet brekkie before facing the onslaught.

I would just say you both like your privacy and are going to stay in a hotel. 'A little luxury treat for you both' or whatever but don't give in.

Hello OP - I've read the whole thread and it made me feel exhausted! My parents are just like your ILs, especially my mum, and I have so much sympathy for you and your DP.

I find visiting extraordinarily stressful and have to take a day off before and after a weekend with them to prepare / recover.

I completely get the anxiety, the narcissism, the emotional blackmail.

Things that have helped me:

• Running through conversations with them in my head beforehand. Practise saying 'no' in the way a PP suggested - without giving them anything to argue with. You do not owe them an explanation. You do not owe them your guilt.

• I'm an introvert too. I need a lot of downtime. As a PP mentioned, go to bed early and have the evenings to yourself. If they ask why, tell them you're tired because they kept you awake until 1am / woke you up to ask if the door was locked

• Keep your own car with you. You can unwind in it on the way to / from the stately homes...

• do not engage with emotional blackmail / guilt-tripping / anger. Ignore ignore ignore. Walk away if need be. Drive away if you have to.

The thing that helped me most - and I appreciate this might not work for many people - was learning to see my mum as a child. Because of things that happened in her own childhood, she's emotionally 'stuck' at a young age. She has tantrums, sulks, demands attention, etc etc. I now treat her like a young child - kindness, firm boundaries, 'praise' when she behaves well, ignoring when she doesn't. I know it sounds fucked up, but it works for me.

That is brilliant advice HumpMeBogart (love the name btw) Yes both the OPs parents sound as if they are stuck in their childhood!!

Sorry her PILs!

Thank you steve and hump for sharing your experiences. I realise that this must be more common than I thought and that we are not alone, which is very comforting. I appreciate you taking the time to read the thread, because I know that sometimes even reading about similar situations can make you feel upset and stressed! Thank you.

I think that's interesting about seeing them as children. In terms of their background, both were only children. Both are also from families where their mothers (so DH's grandparents) were far brighter/more gifted than fathers (I mean really obviously so in both cases- artistic talent recognised with offers of scholarships at the highest level etc), but who sadly weren't allowed to pursue an education/career of their own because of their gender (argh, sexism).

From what I have heard, that combination means that PIL grew up with an unusual degree of focus on them from somewhat frustrated mothers who had all other outlets denied to them. This has then been amplified in their own relationship, where bullying and anxiety are part of their daily life. MIL's selective deafness is partly a way of screening out FIL's anxiety; and the fact that they are both strong-willed means that they've become used to a familial culture where nuance and social skills aren't really ever rewarded, so haven't been developed. But they're not angry or aggressive (though FIL was violent to DH and MIL when he was younger): what they do have is a much greater repertoire of emotionally manipulative behaviour than I have ever witnessed - they seem to have invented a new, baroque taxonomy of passive-aggression, with branches and sub-branches of attack!

I wonder sometimes whether I should bring out what they are doing as a counter-attack. So instead of the broken record, to say 'I understand that you think that by repeating the same thing you may get a different answer, but it actually makes me feel that you're not really listening to what we are saying. We cannot stay another day, because we are tired and need rest at home. The answer is still no.'???

Sympathy OP - they sound like a nightmare, but you sound brilliant!

Two ideas that spring to mind.

1. You say they are passive aggressive. Have you ever tried the wide-eyed, slightly mystified approach with them?

Using last year's failed faux Christmas as an example:
"Shall we open the presents then?"
Pouty-faced "You can if you want to"
"You don't want to open presents?"
"No, don't feel like it now."
"Why not?"
"Just don't fancy it"
sidehead "Oh dear, are you not in a good mood?"
"It's fine"
"No MIL, you don't look fine, what's up? Is everything ok?"

A lot of the time, passive aggressive types rely on other people not to draw them out into open, direct conversation. They prefer to lurk in the shadows and leave things unsaid but tacit. Call their bluff, and make them explain in excruciating detail just what exactly is causing that bottom lip to stick out.

1. A variation on the above. They sound like transmitters, not receivers. They broadcast, you and your husband absorb.

Can you turn the tables? Again, playing on their PA tendencies, bombard them with enthusiastic explanations of what YOU want, draw them out when they are being sulky, and be as verbose and over the top as they are.

Again, last Christmas:

"Time for Christmas lunch! FIL, want some turkey?"
sulkily "None for me thanks, I'm not hungry now"
"What do you mean? But we've had this planned for weeks - we just wanted to have Christmas with you and for everyone to have a good time. Did you forget we were coming?"
"I ate before you came"
"But FIL, we have all this food. We made it all for you. Aren't you going to eat any of it?"
"Fine." takes food, refuses to eat it
"God, I love cranberry sauce. FIL, don't you just love Christmas food? What's your favourite? What would you like to watch on TV later? I love watching the movies on TV."
"I'm not hungry."

(And here you could revert to sidehead approach above)

Could you start transmitting? Clearly the *dig your heels in and say no" approach isn't working, could you try to confound them instead?

I realise it's not a long-term strategy (as it would be exhausting in itself), but it would be interesting to see if it worked. Then you could always use it as backup if needed?

And to use one of their bullying scenarios (as opposed to the sulky ones above):

"Right, so are we going?"
wide-eyed "What do you mean MIL, I thought we explained we aren't coming out for [the morning activity]?"
"But we bought tickets!"
"But MIL, DH has his presentation on Monday! You want him to do well, don't you? He needs to rest this morning."

Sorry, posted too soon ... But you get the idea. Bombard them back.

Think it'd work? Force them to explain themselves endlessly, instead of the other way around? Make like Rosencrantz and Guildenstern, and end everything with a question?

"they seem to have invented a new, baroque taxonomy of passive-aggression, with branches and sub-branches of attack! "

I think I just fell in love with you a teeny bit

I agree with all that has been said about staying in a hotel. Do that myself.

I think the best way to handle it is with a surprise visit - don't tell them you are coming, ta-da we are here, already staying in the hotel!

Their behaviour is so entrenched (and works with everyone, apparently) that they aren't going to change. I wouldn't beat my head against a stone wall trying. I think it's going to have to be a case of 'irresistible force meets unmovable object'. You're going to have to just start 'going your own way', blithely ignoring their PA antics. Hotel, separate car, shorter visits. Eventually their PA antics will be just as the buzzing of a mosquito in a dark room. It's there and it's annoying. Occasionally you get bit. But over all, if you learn to ignore the sound, you'll still get a good night's sleep.

One risk in DeadGood's approach is that you get sucked into conversations with PIL, when simply ignoring their sulky behaviour behaviour might be better.

eg in scenario 1, you could say "ok no problem, we'll open our presents now and you can open yours later"

In scenario 2, you could say "ok, no problem, you stay where you are and we'll go and help ourselves"

That way, PIL don't get any benefit of sulking, because they don't get what they want, you don't end up pussy footing around them. The key is not to let them see they've got to you. If you are polite & breezy, but show determination to do things your own way, then they have to give in eventually

After all, they're not going to kidnap you from the hotel and force feed you, are they?

Notice that a lot of this centres around cars. Symbol of independence/mobility perhaps?

My own difficult parent put up lots of practical and metaphorical road-blocks to me learning to drive. Not a coincidence, I think.

Right. I'm only on page 4 but I have to stop reading for the moment because I need to urge you to buy a book called WHERE TO DRAW THE LINE: HOW TO SET HEALTHY BOUNDARIES EVERY DAY by Anne Katherine. Please OP, get on Amazon and get this book as soon as you can! You cannot change these people's behaviour, but you can certainly change how you and DH respond, still possible with politeness and decency. They are overbearing, selfish bullies and you cannot allow them to continue.

Right, off to read the rest of the thread...

There is far too much of them insisting, not accepting, not listening.

Why see them at all?

^^This. With bells on.

Sadly, we can't have DCs. sad We haven't yet told them, and it's a conversation I'm dreading

I'm sorry to read that. But why discuss it with them? I wouldn't discuss anything with them. (And you know they will upset you) Because I wouldn't be seeing them. Ever.

"One risk in DeadGood's approach is that you get sucked into conversations with PIL, when simply ignoring their sulky behaviour behaviour might be better... The key is not to let them see they've got to you. If you are polite & breezy, but show determination to do things your own way, then they have to give in eventually"

I know that my approach might involve having a conversation, but that in itself may not be a bad thing. Can you see how depressing it would be with the "ignore" approach? The OP and her partner would literally be sitting there ignoring absolutely everything the parents say.

The thing is that "ignore" sounds like it has been tried and it hasn't worked. The reason I suggested what I did is because the purpose is to disrupt their current MO. Stop them in their tracks and force them into retreat.

Also, you mention "the benefit of sulking" but the thing is that the OP has said that she doesn't think they are malicious. They simply do not have normal boundaries or know how to behave socially. So they should be treated like children, as other posters have said, rather than like a hostile enemy.

Definitely don't say anything about DCs! if FIL is a DV perpetrator, you might not want to take any foster children there anyway.

Imagine that they are colleagues from another office - small talk is more than enough for them.

Justmyview passive aggressive people depend on others "ignoring" their behaviour. Brightly breezily carrying on as if there isn't an atmosphere you could cut with a knife.

Do you think it would make for an enjoyable day, quietly opening presents under the tree while half the party sit silently in their chairs, refusing to participate and with faces like slapped arses?

No. Draw them out.

at jacquetta

You know, I think no single tactic is going to work, so a combination is going to be needed. deadgood's idea of over-questioning, and a studious ignoring of other things, broken record, and a kind of meta-level questioning of why they aren't listening, PLUS the hotel and the car (they'll have to prise me off my ancient VW with a clawhammer next visit). Like I said, the baroque PA probably needs an equally baroque anti-PA tactical approach. I think this is what acrossthepond might be telling me (wise words, yet again).

maybe - that's interesting about the car being the focus for you - you must have felt really trapped by that behaviour. I like the way you describe it as 'road blocking' - literally and metaphorically! PIL definitely use it to control. They know I am quite worried about environmental issues (though I try not to crash on about them and bore everyone), so they will tell me I am being a horrendous hypocrite taking two cars instead of one etc etc etc. I think I have a cunning plan for the next visit to ensure we have to take two cars. We can arrive around lunch, do something very local, and stay the night, then do the Big Day of Stately Boredom the next day. We can then head straight home back from the National Trust pile that they want to see, which is the opposite direction to their house. I will then do lots of penitent cycling to work to make up for it!

nanny - If they were my parents, I might well go NC for a while BUT they are not. DH and I have had a long, hard look at the NC option - and trust me when I say I watched him with narrowed eyes to tell whether he was really considering it or just giving me some bullshit. (I can spot the BS a mile off now, I know him too well). He was really considering it. We talk a lot, quite honestly and unemotionally about how we might handle the situation practically - we are close enough to do that without it being a nag on either side. He simply feels it would be more stressful for him than this limited contact, particularly if we reduce the length of the visits and increase our independence during them with hotel/car strategies. I think I have to respect his wishes a bit and at least try this avenue. The 5--day visits are impossible, but perhaps shorter will work better. As I said before, they don't mean as badly as they are. A lot of it comes from a place of them wanting their sons around them as a family. They just don't understand that the very things they are doing to try to secure that are pushing them away. If only they could stop and actually listen, they would find out that, at bottom, we all want the same thing. It's just that we need to find a compromise in the middle so it's enjoyable for everyone.

Also, as several people have pointed out, I do have some learning to do here about dealing with difficult people, and even though I am stressed out of my mind there, it will probably do me some good to have to be more assertive.

fantasticbuttocks (great name) - I'm off to check out that book.

Dead Good - my concern is that if OP asks PIL why they're upset, then it's pandering to them & giving PIL an opportunity to vent their displeasure, whereas if OP and her DH simply went into the kitchen to eat, or went out for a walk, then PIL would be left without an audience & would see that their attempts to pressure everyone had been in vain

I guess we all project based on our own experiences. Anyway, it's good for OP to have plenty of strategies up her sleeve.

"my concern is that if OP asks PIL why they're upset, then it's pandering to them & giving PIL an opportunity to vent their displeasure"

But their reasons are either idiotic or non-existent. That is why it's useful to make them vocalise what they're actually annoyed about - because once they say the words aloud, it will make them sound beyond petty, and they know it.

They would prefer to remain enigmatic and be all "I'm fine" (whilst looking hurt and offended). Untangle it all and then everyone can move on

(apols for brusque tone of my posts just)

OP, I wish you luck - they sound like a nightmare. You have been so patient!