to suspect that this DH is living like a guest in his own home?

[Madinche1sea]

So this morning at breakfast, while DH was "ordering" his particular- style of protein omelette (😐), DD (aged 7) looked at him and said,

"Daddy do you think you're a guest in this house or something?"

Her comment got me thinking, but AIBU to think that DH could, in fact, be making his own breakfast (or dinner or doing anything else housework-related for that matter)?

We have 4 DC under 12 so the mornings are fairly full-on and I tend to need to be super-organised to get everyone out. We have 4 kids in 3 different schools. I should start by saying that I'm SAHM and since our youngest started school last Sept, can get some time to myself in the day now. DH works very long hours and travels a fair bit which is why I'm fine to do most of the house-related stuff. However....

DH does not cook AT ALL. On top of this, he is always involved in some kind of training schedule for some ridiculous event (like running 100 miles in the Sahara or something like this), so is usually on some particular diet which I am expected to cater for. I don't think he's ever ironed anything - I take his shirts/ suits to the dry-cleaners or iron his other stuff, but he never passes comment about how things appear ready to wear in his wardrobe.

I do have a cleaner who comes in twice a week and, to be fair to DH, he always tells me to get her in more so I can take more time for myself. But I don't bother because most of the mess is in the evenings once the kids are in anyway.

If not overseas with work, DH goes to his boxing club one night a week. He plays rugby on Sundays usually, plus goes on early morning runs most days. I don't mind any of this as he has a very stressful job and needs to unwind, but it does make family life more hectic - particularly with morning routines and all the stuff the kids do on weekends.

He usually comes in about 8 ish to "put the kids to bed" ie. joke about with them, cuddles etc once I have actually got them in the beds and everything else is done! Then we will have dinner together. He will usually do a few more hours work after this while I'm clearing up, sorting out kids school clothes and stuff for the next day. We go to bed about 11-12 usually.

I do have to say he is generally very thoughtful and lovely - for instance, he insists on taking me on "date-nights" at least every other week which he organises and books the babysitter for. He is actually better than me at prioritising our relationship and I appreciate this as it can be difficult with 4 kids.

Sometimes though, I feel as if he is living in a parallel universe, with no idea about the logistics of 4 kids, homework, after school clubs, shopping and general life skills. AIBI?

The 'doing the most important job in the world' bit has made me boiling mad. So he should do it then.

That is one massive bullshitting controlling red flag right there. Plus it makes him sound a little like Andrea Leadsom which is never good.

Thanks everyone. All your perspectives are really helpful. I'm feeling quite emotional tbh.

Tootsie - I'll watch the video later as its a bit tricky now.

Cocoa - thankyou again. It's really hard for me to see the wood for the trees sometimes, I think. It's hard to step outside of your own life, I guess. And I'm very aware too that I don't have a bad life. We're all healthy. We have a beautiful home, great friends and no money worries. I do need to work on DH though, I am really starting to see this now.

Thankyou all. Will post this afternoon.

So sorry Masqueen - you must be exhausted . Your story makes mine sound so self-indulgent. And I'm so aware too of all the women in abusive relatationships or single mums doing far more than me with no money and no support whatsoever.

Hmmm, maybe don't work on him, maybe decide what you would like to do first, make a plan (it may take weeks, months or even a year or two) and then explain to him what you are going to do.

Hi Op, I don't post much but your thread really got me angry on your behalf. I know it must be difficult to hear all the opinions of strangers on your life. I would really ask you to think about why you are so unwilling to upset the status quo, why you feel that your needs and personal fulfillment are not as important as your husbands.

The thing is, i'm sure he is a lovely husband, very reasonable and seems supportive and caring - but why wouldn't he be, he has you exactly where it suits him. When you stay exactly where he needs you to be to enable his lifestyle. I'm know you both chose for you to be a SAHM, but people's lives change and their needs change, and a supportive partner should understand that and not stifle you or make you feel guilty for wanting something else. Do you guilt trip him for working long hours and travelling? Probably not.

As a previous poster said, the issue of you going back to work is the only thing you fight about, because its potentially the only thing that gives you back some sort of autonomy. Its the only thing that could potentially upset his routine. Then he may not be so reasonable.

You say that he is quite a traditionalist, who himself grew up in a traditional household. Then he is perpetuating what he learned as a child and your children will no doubt do the same.

I have no doubt that you have a good marriage and a nice lifestyle, but honestly, reading your posts makes me sad for you. To me you seem to be playing a supporting role in your own life. You have the right to want independence and recognition and fulfillment of your own outside the home, it doesn't make you a bad mother or wife.

I also wanted to add something else - you mention a few times in your posts about growing up in a poor village in Spain, and now you are living a very privileged lifestyle because of his income - could it be that you feel somehow indebted to your husband for providing you and your children a life you probably only dreamed of growing up?

he's not like this about anything else though

What else is there?

You are not allowed to have a life of your own.

Just the life he has decided to allot you, where he and his offspring are your focus.

Looking after him and his children is "the most important job in the world"?

Yes, spending all day every day making sure 4 rich and privileged children get into the right schools is definitely adding more to the world than being a child psychologist for refugees.

I completely see where you're coming from but I do think YABU.

Me and OH have agreed that even though SAHM is not paid, it is still a 'job'. My hours will be similar to his. If he is working 9-5 I am too, so H e cannot come home afterwards and expect his dinner on the table if I've not even had a chance to sit down all day and he's had a lunch break. Anything outside of 'working hours' is shared. I feel like you already have this though as in the evening he is still working while you are clearing up etc.

The only place where it feels unfair might be the lack of help in the mornings if you are doing it all while he's having a run but do you get the same amount of time in the day while DC are in school? Does he not get anytime other than the run? If so then sounds pretty fair.

You show your love and caring for him in providing the food he wants and he takes you out every couple of weeks. By the sound of it you might be wanting more than that, the occasional odd meal at home and job round the house?

Ok just come out to get DD.

Tootsie - the video was funny but tragic at the same time. I had not heard of Viv Albertine. I will look up her memoirs. Thanks for posting.

user - yours is a very thoughtful post (thankyou) and you're probably not wrong on many things. I think when the kids were young, I just got on with it, as all mums do, and I never really gave my position that much thought.

I wouldn't say I feel indebted to DH for "providing" for us as he has. I never asked him to do any of this. To be fair to him, he has never made me feel like it's not our money and it's a joint partnership. He knows perfectly well he could not have done what he's done and had a family if it wasn't for the support I've given him and the fact I've just let him get on with it.

He has a military background and was in the process of extracting himself from the military when I met him. At that time neither of us knew exactly how things would pan out. His perspective would be that we have each just played to our strengths and did what was most practical in the circumstances. I don't know - he has always had a lot of energy and drive and I'm just not particularly finance or business orientated. I did enjoy my work, but I fully admit I was never as career-driven as him. And we had 4 children which
obviously dictated a lot.

Doinit - DH would say family is the most important thing in the world. I do understand where you're coming from in viewing him as a total hypocrite though. I have a lot to think about.

Gotta say, I do agree that he doesn't see you as a whole person, merely as an adjunct to his and the DC's lives.
Yes, he knows you are a huge asset to him and the DCs - but why isn't that enough for you?
Yes, he loves you - because you are an asset to him and look after his progeny!
Yes he would like to make you happy, but only if you don't go against his wishes and step outside of your allotted role.

He is subtly controlling you, keeping you in "your place" in his life. He obviously could be a LOT worse about it, but there is no doubt, from the conversational responses you've detailed, that you, as a person, are of secondary, nay, tertiary importance to him and the DC.

Fuckaduck.

Listen, if your counselling needs brushing up, then get a daytime refresher course if you can. And then, see if you can join an organisation that allows you to work school hours only - or set up in private practice to do that. All of the counsellors I knew professionally worked in clinics, but were self-employed, so set their own hours. Could you not just do that? I'm not saying don't tell him, just set it up and make it a fait accompli when you DO tell him.

Sorry I misread and thought you were coming from a lack of help from him and not that it was a personal want to get out there more as such so ignore the last post.

It sound like you have a wonderful relationship. I would just think about what would help him see it better from your point of view, you know him better than anyone, what do you think he needs convincing about? Or is he completely closed off to the idea?

It is so hypocritical for someone who evidently lives and breathes work (the DH) to tell his wife she's wrong to want to seek job satisfaction other than as a SAHM. It would be interesting to know what he's like with the mums and dads on his staff. No doubt there are some.

I sometimes wonder if people who do the 'most important job' thing ever consider how woefully short we'd be of teachers, doctors, etc if all couples thought like this.

Never mind the time he spends on his own job.

This fucker has been spending his time training for various sporting events rather than being an involved Dad.

He so very clearly doesn't think of family as being in his own top 5 most important things.

Family is so boring and unimportant for him that he needs to outsource caring about it to a woman who he can browbeat into making it the centre of her life.

Then he can drop in and out as it takes his fancy.

Which will mostly be when the boys are doing manly things.

His daughters hang out of him when he's at home because they live in a family where all the status resides with him and they know they are sevond class compared to their brothers.

Weirdly this desperate clinging is interpreted as healthy attachment.

Doinit - don't hold back will you?

I realise DH has his issues or I would not have posted in the first place. If you knew him though, you wouldn't say he doesn't love his family.

As for the sports, yes he's always been like this, but at least he doesn't sit round on his arse all day, drink, gamble or chase other women.

I just had to say this for balance.

but at least he doesn't sit round on his arse all day, drink, gamble or chase other women.

Come on.

You're so lucky. He doesn't hit you either.

You have already said that you have a lot too think about made, and that is true. I am aware from my own experience that once you start to see things through a different lens, you cannot un-see them. You are the one who still needs to live your life day to day, regardless of what anyone on here says.

It is possible to love someone or someone love you, and the dynamic of the relationship be unhealthy, the two are not mutually exclusive. But if you unpick the statements you gave as examples, then the question is where is the room to compromise?

• Why would you need another job? You're already doing the most important job in the world. As others have said, why is he not doing, or sharing it then? - that would be a compromise

• It's not fair on the DC. Do you really want them coming home to some random woman? I already dealt with this one above - the compromise would be, what is the balance between you and good childcare

• The kids still need you. DS1 and 2 might not have got into XX School if you hadn't been on the case. You need to do the same for DD1 and 2 or it's not fair. Where is he in this? Your DC have two parents to ensure they are okay - so again, what will he do here?

• You had 4 babies in 8 years, take some time for yourself now. Yes, by going out and doing something you have trained for, and will make a difference in the world to those outside your home too, and give you a sense of self-worth, which is not dependent on him

• Do you care more about what other people think, or what I think and the children need? *you have needs to - but the phrasing of the question forces you to choose, so it already puts you in a corner, because he is shaping the terms of the conversation. (As an aside, and I am not saying you should do this, but the moment I actually decided to leave my marriage was when my xH said to me, you should make some time for yourself - knowing full well that this was impossible if he did not step up and help me do this... thus, I saw only one option to do what he suggested I do )

• Do you know how much I love you? Everything I've ever done is for you and the kids. Hyperbole - did he not have a life before you? Does he not benefit from the life you have; and which you have enabled him to provide etc - in fact any statement which suggests someone has only ever done, or never done, whatever is usually bollocks - and there is no room for in-betweens, which is what you need for compromise and agreement between opposing viewpoints

• Are you not happy about something - what can I do? He can let you make some of your own choices about working

• No I'm not saying you're not allowed to do anything - but you've heard my view haven't you. This is the killer, because it implies, so therefore, why are you even thinking about it still???

Control, however subtle, is a form of psychological abuse, and if you are limiting yourself through fear of his reaction or rocking the boat (and you may tell me that this is too strong language to use), then you are being controlled. It is all the more insidious precisely because it is not as obvious as physical abuse, or financial abuse, or any other dysfunctional relationship (gambling partner, alcohol etc) - because with the latter, then you can see it. With this, it actually is so nice and reasonable and respectful, and so caring and kind, and you are so well provided for, that you think you are the unreasonable, ungrateful one for actually wanting something which looks a bit different. You are not.

I think you have a strategy for getting back into your field and PP's who have said quite simply get on with researching how to do it and present it as what you are going to do are right.

The best way to look at it is that there is a difference between compromise (healthy) and being compromised (unhealthy).

Cocoa - thankyou for going to all this trouble on my account. I'm still absorbing, but as you say, once you've seen something, you can't unsee it.

It sounds like your DH was similar then?

I don't like talking to real life friends because it feels disrespectful when people actually know him.

We're going out for dinner this evening

This has turned into a really sad thread. On the surface everything looks lovely but in reality it's depressing.

Yes, a bit tragic - Viv Albertine was obviously in a bad marriage - her book says that her husband hated it when she picked up her guitar again after 25 years. Basically didn't want her to be the creative person that she wanted to be, and that was obviously too much for her.

I have been thinking about this a lot this weekend having read that book and contributing to this thread. Ultimately when we get married, and particularly if we then have children, we are not free anymore in the same way you are when you are not in a relationship. Everything you do has to take into account your spouse and your children. And this applies to both men and women. Not being free IS difficult, you have responsibilities, you can't just please yourself. But you get other things in return. Within the relationship though you have to keep as much of yourself as you need to. Some people might be completely themselves nurturing others. Other people might need other outlets to enable them to be themselves. If your relationship doesn't let you be yourself then you probably can't stay in it. If you need to contribute to society, or be creative, or earn money, or whatever makes you truly feel yourself, then you need to find a way to do it within your relationship otherwise you will be miserable.

The partner doing the breadwinning perhaps is often more fulfilled if they enjoy their work (but maybe quite a lot don't really get fulfilment from work!), but having a break from a career and some time on your own when children are at school can give you the opportunity to explore other things that can give you a sense of self and achievement which could be really interesting and exciting. Your situation is not necessarily as some of the posters are making out!

As a PP said, the only killer would be if your husband didn't want you to be who you really want to be, and would sacrifice your happiness so that you are how HE wants you to be.

Bit of a ramble. Hope it makes sense!

It sounds like your DH was similar then?

Yes and no. There are some bells ringing, but I also don't want to project from my situation. I think what tootsie says is true; but also you have not yet exhausted all avenues, or even close to all, in seeing whether there are options for bringing more of yourself into the marriage and family.

In terms of real life support, if you have time and the money, then I would honestly suggest investing a bit of it in a life coach or therapist for you. The former would be professionally constructive, I think, in helping formulate a plan and to bounce ideas off; but both would be excellent for getting a bit of self-validation and confidence in your own right.

Here's what balance looks like at a very basic level:

Man works full time, whatever that entails, makes money and that goes into a joint account.
Goes running at a time that is convenient for his family, to get some exercise.
Plays the odd judicious round of golf for business purposes. Goes to the odd event at the golf club.
Looks over the children's homework, asks them how their day went.
Participates in putting the children to bed.
Takes the children to their activities at the weekend at least on a 50/50 basis.
Is kind and appears interested in the lives his wife and children lead.
Gives up a lot of his headspace in order to make sure his life partner has some room in hers for herself.

Couples who get along well often have an arrangement where they defer to each other's strong points. Someone may be a whiz at meal planning. The other may be really good at making sure the family is getting the best deal for utilities, phone, insurance, etc. Someone may be really good at organising and packing for holidays. The other person co-operates in these scenarios and doesn't play the role of heckler or critic. It's good for children to see their parents appreciating each other's strong points. Otoh, it's bad for children to only see one parent doing it all. It's really easy for them to suspect there is a hierarchy at play and in our not very healthy society to suspect that the domestic effort and the person who does it all on the domestic front are in the second tier. It's really bad for their relationship with both parents and for their image of themselves to see that hierarchy at play in their own home.

I hope you will have a little time to figure out how you can carve out whatever it is in life that will give you a sense of contributing, if that is what you feel you are missing.

But sit down and ask yourself if the feeling that you are not contributing comes from a lack of appreciation in your own home for the work you do. Would you feel more appreciated if DH actually squeezed a little room in his head for the mental burden of running the home and organising everybody's lives? To a certain extent, imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.

Is there a degree to which your role here, in your DH's eyes, is to mirror back to him how successful he is? Does he like you exactly where you are and does he on some level need you to be the little woman at home, who doesn't have to work, who is always reliably there, who takes care of the details that will reflect well on him (nice children, nice home, nice garden, wife who gets her nails and hair done and goes to the gym all day, etc).

The scene you described with your DDs clinging to your DH, DH doing whatever they want at weekends, DDs miserable when he's away - that is all filling his own ego needs (so is proclaiming his love for you; it all makes him feel good about himself in his own head) but it is absolutely not adequate parenting for your daughters. He must feel wonderfully appreciated by them - who wouldn't, with such a display... But under the surface what he is doing is playing hard to get and being very distant and he is not meeting them as equal individuals or even as humans, because a dog would greet him in the same way and it would probably be equally gratifying an experience for him. Someone upthread said he loves you as a pet, and this is absolutely true of how he treats the girls too.

Worse still, as girls they are being trained by him to accept a relationship with a man on the man's terms and not on theirs. One of them at least has been sufficiently hurt by what she has experienced to have uttered a shout of protest. She suspects that what she is experiencing is unfair and not right. Be true to your daughter and try to redefine the roles that you and DH are playing.

I agree 100% with Doin's and Cocoa's posts here.

Listen to 'Gimme Shelter' by the Rolling Stones and try to imagine that song without the backing singer. Assuming you are not a Stones fanatic, ask yourself if you know her name.

Thankyou everyone.

I've been doing some thinking to try and work out where DH is coming from. I think part of the problem for him is that he has grown up in predominantly male environments (boarding school, the military, the type of business he's been in since) and, as a result, he has an inbuilt "idealised" view of women (wives and mothers) which he projects onto me.

Your post made absolute sense Tootsie. DH and I are obviously together for a reason and would not have got this far were there not mutual benefits to us both. I don't regret having been a mum and supporting him in his career for one second. I grew up in an extended family where there were always young children around and so this kind of thing comes completely naturally to me.

When we got engaged, he was having something of a confidence-crises, I suppose, coming out my of Bosnia. He had this business plan with a friend of his and he asked me to give him 5 years or so and he would get things set up for us. So things kind of went from there really. There were times when I wish he'd had more "headspace" for me after DS1 and 2. I was lucky I never got depression of anything though. I was always aware that the flip side of him working so much was that it gave me the freedom to be with the children day to day. This would not have suited all women, but it did suit me.

As you say though, things change. I think DH is used to me always being 100 per cent there for him, as his wife. He's never had to shuffle his work commitments around childcare or me and frankly, he has no concept of this whatsoever.

It really isn't true though that he treats his daughters like "pets" or that that they have an insecure attachment to him. He's not perfect, but he loves them and they know this. I don't really know what else to say on that.

I suppose so don't want to feel like I'm letting him down, if that makes sense?

I'n still thinking obviously, but just wanted to say thankyou for your thoughtful posts.

DoinItFine

do you ever think that there is a human being at the end of that post? You clearly care more about expressing your vehemently biased opinion, than about the human being who is at the receiving end of it. You are also talking a load of shit too

You're not letting him down. Marriages last a long time (hopefully!) and like a business contract, or indeed, a military campaign, they need rethinking and renegotiating from time to time. I am trying to use appropriate metaphors .

It will be interesting if your DDs take more after DH (or your DSs after you), given the rigid division of labour you've had till now.

I agree with those posters who find his arguments for you staying at home very manipulative, whether consciously or not.

He's framing the discussion one way - you have to frame it differently.

"You love me? You want me to take some time for myself? Then you need to support me doing something that I VALUE (not what you think I should value) at least while the dcs are at school".