To blame Islam even for this??

[durezz]

I have just heard about a maniac axeman who has injured more than 20 people going on a rampage on a train. It's horrific and doesn't bear thinking about.
But is it fair that without any details people automatically assume it has something to do with the religion of Islam?

Of all the atrocities happening these days I feel so sad that after every such incident 1.8 billion Muslims are somehow held responsible. Fair?

Just after a general consensus to pick your brains and see is that really how people think?

I sometimes wonder if bringing back National Service would be a good thing. I think in this day and age we actually could do with more Service Trained young men (and women). I think also at the age they go into national service young men are quite impressionable. Any that were being radicalised would may be spotted early on.

Interesting idea Standing. It has some merit. Perhaps a national service that is for both men and women and not necessarily in the military?

But I do not want them to have any kind of influence in Europe because they do not belong here.

You do know that there are three Muslim majority countries in Europe, don't you?

And that the oldest mosque in the UK is 127 years old?

Muslims aren't going anywhere.

puzzled - the verse you are referring to and also the other verses that mention killing (eg. "Kill them wherever you find them")..these were mostly revealed during or in relation to the many battles that were occurring at this time (uhud, badr etc), where it is fully permissible to kill the opposition..there is something called 'tafseer' of the Quran which basically breaks down each verse and gives you an explanation of what it means as some is ambiguous and can be open to interpretation. There are MANY tafseer of the Quran from different people and I have come across so many, none have ever said that these verses mean you can kill disbelievers wherever they are in the world. Only in a state of battle, man on man.

In fact there is a Surah in the Quran called Abasa, it tells a short story where the prophet Mohammad pbuh is trying to convince a disbeliever of Allah's existence, a believer then comes up to him and wants his attention but the prophet continues his conversation with the disbeliever and is passionately trying to prove Islam is the correct religion. Allah then revealed this Surah telling the prophet not to turn his back on a believer who wanted his company and not to get so involved in trying to convert as only Allah can turn someone's heart from disbelief to belief. Verse 7 of the Surah says

"what does it matter to you if he will not become pure from disbelief, you are ONLY a messenger, your duty is to convey the message of Allah"

This whole Surah (and many other hadiths/verses of the Quran and tafseer) basically sums up that it is NOT permissible to kill a disbeliever simply for disbelieving. If that was the case it would have told him to kill on the spot.

It's frustrating people think the Muslim scholars aren't doing enough. I guess it depends who you take knowledge from as there are many corrupt individuals who claim to be Islamic and are just following their own desires (there are these types in every religion!) there is definitely a massive issue with extremism in the Muslim communities but it is NOT Islam itself.
Scholars in Saudi Arabia and all over the world are constantly speaking out against daesh, constantly! Prominent speakers in the UK also do the same. There are leaflets distributed against extremism, lectures, tweets, you name it. It disgusts Muslims probably more than non Muslims because it's our religion that is getting tainted so very badly.

Also, this is a Hadith on the ISIS:

^Anas ibn Malik reported: The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, said, “There will be division and sectarianism in my nation and a people (the Kharijites) will come with beautiful words and evil deeds. They will recite the Quran but it will not pass beyond their throats. They will leave the religion as an arrow leaves its target and they will not return to it as the arrow does not return to its bow. They are the worst of the creation. Blessed are those who fight them and are killed by them. They call to the Book of Allah but they have nothing to do with it. Whoever fights them is better to Allah than them.”

Source: Sunan Abī Dāwūd 4765, Grade: Sahih (authentic) according to Al-Albani^

In Islam, they are referred to as the Khawarijj which means the dogs of hellfire, because this is what we believe they are. The prophet even warned us about them, they can recite Quran beautifully, outwardly look like the most devout Muslims but are pure evil and nothing to do with the religion.

Can't be bothered to go in to the issue of hijab but I saw a comment how women are FORCED to cover up, please don't speak on behalf of me, because I wasn't forced thank you very much. In fact neither were the many Muslim women I know. It was my CHOICE. And if I decide one day to take my head scarf off, I will do just that. I felt a slave to society before I covered, constantly trying to keep up with fashion and looking 'normal'. Now I cover up I get awful looks and am definitely made to feel not normal at all, but it has liberated me beyond my wildest dreams and I will always cherish this feeling! Not worried about conforming or what to wear etc, I'm just me. Pleasing my Lord, I feel private and content.

Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world and it has been for years, if it was all doom, gloom, murder etc I doubt it would have spread as rapidly as it has and is.

It disgusts Muslims probably more than non Muslims because it's our religion that is getting tainted so very badly.

Yes.

There's also the fact that IS are killing Muslims across the globe.

So instead of holding on to the forlorn hope that we will all convert to atheism, how about accepting that the vast majority of Muslims fear and detest IS as much as non-Muslims do, and let's work together to defeat them.

Oh and I think OP may have mentioned this but it is also OBLIGATORY to obey the law of the land you live in (this has been reiterated time and time again by scholars of today). If you live in the UK you follow UK laws and don't try to bring your own law and take over! If you want to live under sharia, get out and move to a Muslim country. It's simple as that.

There is also a verse in the Quran called Surah Kafiroon..I'm not feeling very well so not gonna type it all out want to get off my phone in a bit! But here's what I remember off top of my head:

O disbelievers, I do not worship what you worship, you do not worship what I worship, I will never worship what you worship, you shall never worship what I worship, you have your religion and I have mine

Again, Nowhere does it say "I have my religion and will kill you if you don't follow it"

ISIS are not Muslims, they're twisted sick individuals who use the ambiguity of verses to carry out their sick fantasies. They have twisted everything which can be done with any holy book!
To the posters who said Quran needs to be updated etc. that will never happen. It's the only holy book that has never been changed. We believe in the bible (the original before it was changed) we believe in the Torah (again, the original) but these have all been changed/modified, the Quran is the same today as it was centuries ago and it will never be changed to suit times. It wouldn't be a holy book or the word of God if it were changed.

I have shivers now, Hummy. The Kharijites sound dreadfully familiar. Very interesting posts. Thank you.

Again, Nowhere does it say "I have my religion and will kill you if you don't follow it"

really? What about the quote from MistressMia above?

There are a number of quotes above which suggest "there is no compulsion in religion". I don't think that anyone claimed there aren't good sentences in the Quran. the trouble is that there are too many bad ones, and some people cherry pick those over the good ones. why are they wrong?

Oh and one more thing, sharia law...

Homosexuality is completely forbidden (the act, not being homosexual) and yes if you live under sharia and openly engage in homosexuality there is a punishment.

Chopping off limbs - hand gets chopped off if you streal. It's so much more complex than this. If you steal for necessity (can't afford bread to feed family etc) this will be reviewed and you will not face the punishment. If you steal a tv because you want one it will get chopped off. Harsh? Yes. An excellent deterrent? Yes. Making Saudi a country with an extremely low theft rate.

Nowhere in sharia does it say your allowed to rape that's a load of bollocks. Again, when Islam was revealed and battles were common and many, the booty was agreed (by both sides) to be slave girls which were common at the time, everyone had them not just Muslims! It's shocking to think of that now but back then was their normality, everyday life. Slave girls were treated horrendously and WERE raped, however the Quran was revealed and stated that you must be kind to slaves, not force them in to any sexual activity if they do not want it, treat them well. Muslims were the first to treat the slaves decently.
Isis just decided to pick a load of random women and claim them as slaves for no other reason apart from their sexual gain, again this is not Islam, it's not permissible. It's rape.

Slave girls were treated horrendously and WERE raped, however the Quran was revealed and stated that you must be kind to slaves, not force them in to any sexual activity if they do not want it, treat them well. Muslims were the first to treat the slaves decently.

So it appears the quran gets the question of slavery wrong. Hmmm.

Also, why then are ISIS wrong to take slave girls? if they are in war, isn't it ok?

Chilli - just saw them now thank you for pointing out I didn't read whole thread!

If you live under sharia law, you must adhere to its rules. The laws were put down as a deterrent more than anything. Sharia law would not work in the UK rightly so, it doesn't belong here. In Saudi where majority are Muslim it works because mindsets, beliefs etc are mostly similar. Adultery, theft etc are all massive sins in Islam and there really is no excuse for them (unless you are driven to theft by hunger and desperation) these punishments act as deterrents and do work if you look at the crime rate statistics. Not going to sit here and say what she posted is wrong because sharia law is strict, it's supposed to be strict to deter. I can understand why people will not agree, doesn't make the whole religion and all its people evil. Doesn't give me the right to mistreat or kill a gay person in the UK under UK law which takes precedence.

Going to address one Hadith she posted about killing 'the people' and making them convert. When Islam/sharia was established there was huge backlash from idol worshippers (hence why so many battles) they didn't let Muslims follow their religion and many were killed, terrorized, thrown out there home. These are 'the people' that are being referred to, they either live in the Muslim communities peacefully and not throw them out their homes and murder them, they convert, or they get killed.
If Isis came to your city and tried tossing you out your home/killing you and your family for being Christian in your Christian country, would you think it was acceptable for them to be killed? Of course. Same applied back then.
But these are the quotes that are being misinterpreted by people like mistress and more importantly Isis, although Isis have the advantage of basic Islamic knowledge and knowing that you don't bloody kill anyone for being a disbeliever! For every quote like that there's many that show kindess to everyone regardless of faith.
Again, can't be bothered to type all out sorry don't mean to be rude just had a long day but there's hadiths about a prostitue who we believe will enter heaven because she was thirsty, saw a dog who was dehydrated and thirsty and gave the only water she had to the dog.
It's obligatory to be kind to your neighbours, they actually have rights over you. If you upset them or cause them disturbance it is considered a sin, doesn't matter what religion they are. Also one of prophet Mohammad's pbuh workers was a young Jewish boy who was treated kindly.

I can see why people think the Quran and Hadith should be updated because of certain quotes but as mentioned before that's not going to happen, the knowledge is so easy to access, there is no excuse to think that one quote means you can kill disbelievers! Isis don't even believe this in my opinion, they know what they are doing is wrong.

Chilli - didn't understand your first sentence

No it's not ok. Booty was agreed between both sides of the battle back then! Whoever lost, lost their booty (slaves, money etc). It was organized war, both sides were aware.
Isis are just murdering/raping people who have done nothing to them!! If Kurds went in to Syrian Muslim communities and started killing them all for being Muslims, then Isis killing them (just the men in battle) would be justified in the eyes of Islam, what Isis are doing is nothing of the sort!

So all these young men who are from Muslim families have been bought up Muslim consider themselves Muslim suddenly become non Muslim when they fight for ISIS

Right so again an ideology that has its basis in Islam has nothing to do with Islam

Right

Emily - no need to thank me. Isis are referred to as the Khawarijj/daesh by Muslim scholars, imams etc. they are hated passionately not only because of the atrocities they commit to innocent men, women and children but also because we know our God hates them, we know our prophet was told to warn us about them. Unfortunately, as much as I hope and pray they are destroyed, I think they are here to stay. If it's not them, it will be another group. And that depresses me very much.

In Saudi where majority are Muslim it works because mindsets, beliefs etc are mostly similar. Adultery, theft etc are all massive sins in Islam and there really is no excuse for them (unless you are driven to theft by hunger and desperation) these punishments act as deterrents and do work if you look at the crime rate statistics.

do they really work? You think it is ok to anywhere in the world to punish people criminally for adultery, and harshly like they do? Wouldn't you say that view is incompatible with western values?

I can understand why people will not agree, doesn't make the whole religion and all its people evil. Doesn't give me the right to mistreat or kill a gay person in the UK under UK law which takes precedence.

does it give saudi arabia the right to treat gay people as they do? I'd say any country or culture that treats a minority that way is evil. It was evil when we did it 60 or so years ago in Britain, and it's evil when others do it.

No it's not ok. Booty was agreed between both sides of the battle back then! Whoever lost, lost their booty (slaves, money etc). It was organized war, both sides were aware.

but that's not right, is it? whether or not they agreed to it, they are still taking slaves, and islam condones slavery, or at least did at one time (certainly ISIS thinks it does now).

Enthusiasm - massive difference between being a Muslim and a practicing Muslim. I was bought up in a Muslim household, before I myself chose to follow and practice Islam, I smoked, drunk alcohol, ate pork, had boyfriends, went clubbing etc etc. however ALL my family were (and still are) Muslim. If I decided to kill a bunch of people and say it was in the name of Islam, how is this so? When I go against pretty much every fundamental belief in the religion. Don't even pray once a day, something that is obligatory in Islam. How is that islams fault?
Look at the most recent terrorists..one was a closet homosexual, the most recent twat in nice drunk alcohol, never prayed etc. but pledged allegiance to Isis? It just doesn't really make sense. They are not Muslims or killing for the love of Allah, their deranged, sick individuals who use Islam as an excuse for their sick fantasies.

durezz, yours posts demonstrate exactly why all Islamist's are responsible for the acts of violence in its name.

Perhaps you could explain why, given you said you have to, "fight against western liberal views", do you want to live in the 'west'?

The problem is because the west is going backwards (wearing short skirts wtf) relative to the progressive Islam. What crap.

Essentially your saying anyone who doesn't agree with your interpretation of Islam is misunderstanding Islam. Is the Koran the literal word of Allah or not?

Quran (2:191) - "kill them wherever you find them"
Quran (2:244) - "fight in the cause of Allah"
Quran (2:216) - "fighting is prescribed for you"
Quran (3:56) - "punish them with terrible agony"
Quran (3:151) - "cast terror into the hearts"
Quran (4:74) - "fight in the way of Allah"
Quran (4:76) - "fight in the cause of Allah"
Quran (4:89) - "slay them wherever ye find them;
Quran (5:33) - "they should be murdered, crucified or their hands & feet should be cut off"
Quran (8:12) - "strike off their heads"

The list goes on and on and on. I dont know what language your referring to but for most English speakers the meaning is very obvious and it can only mean one thing.

Other religions aren't great as well, but Islam is on a whole other scale of suppressing women rights. Your comment about the evil eye is a perfect example because the implication is that only women have the evil eye upon them, whatever the fuck that is anyway. Are you aware that suffrage's died trying to overcome that kind of oppression.

"If Islam really was a religion of violence you'd all be dead by now" Seriously, face palm. Islamic countries are to busy fighting themselves to attack western countries. And even if they did ... good luck going up against NATO, never mind Russia or China.

"every individual is prone to lustful desires"
That is natural and GOOD, that is how nature has evolved to enable the procreation of species.

And one last thing. I DO NOT HAVE A SATAN INSIDE ME, you have been brainwashed!

Chilli - look at the crime rates for Saudi and decide for yourself if they work. And yes I would say that is COMPLETELY incompatible with western values, hence why in Islam it is obligatory to follow the law of the land. If you live in the uk you can't demand such punishments, if you want to live like that move to a sharia based country. If you don't want to live under sharia or feel oppressed, move out the country because the law isn't going to change for anyone in any country. You just respect the law of the land it's really as simple as that.

Slavery comment could open up a whole book of worms with the bible, Quran and what was ok to do 'back then' we could be here all night. Slavery is illegal firstly (so law of the land needs to be followed, it's not permissible islamically therefore) also as I mentioned back then it really was the norm, every family had a slave girl and the wealthier you were the more Girls/boys/families you had. We can't understand it now because times have obviously and thankfully changed so much but back then it was nothing unusual at all. And it wasn't just Muslims who had salves, Muslims were the ones to treat there's decently after verses were revealed. Also, Isis know full well they aren't allowed to do what they're doing, battles that I have mentioned are known by pretty much every Muslim I've come across, it's common knowledge that slaves are not something that fits in Islam in today's day and age, especially the way Isis are doing it!

Seriously StandingonaBeach, you think getting the army to train young muslim boys how to use weapons is a good idea?

Yes I know the difference between being Muslim and a practising Muslim. But ask someone who has been bought up as a Muslim and at the point in time is not practising who is the prophet and is the Koran the word of God unless they have become a non believer or converted to another religion this is still what they believe they know what they should be doing to be a good practising Muslim but are you really suggesting most would say they are not a Muslim

I think it is difficult HummyMummy. If I had to tick a box on a form, I would be ticking Christian, only as that is how I have learned to identify.To tell the truth I actually think religion of any sort is one of the biggest evils in the world. However, I like to think I have Christian values. And I do think that if you are born as a Muslim, even if you don't practice, you will have Muslim values, tick that box and always sympathise that way.

Peach - please read my posts. The 10 lines you've pulled out of the Quran (out of the hundreds and hundreds) are not in context (some you have pulled, if you look at the lines before and after will
Actually mention in a state of battle). Il say it again even though I know it's falling on many deaf hateful ears, it is only permissible to kill a disbeliever if you are at war with them, man on man, in a battle. These lines of the Quran are in direct reference to battles that were happening at the time, Islam had been revealed there was a huge uproar, lots of murders etc and this is what is being referred to. If you want names of scholars who are hugely followed in Saudi and other Muslim countries to clarify I can give names but I can't sit here and copy and paste all the evidence I'm afraid.