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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To blame Islam even for this??

396 replies

durezz · 18/07/2016 22:35

I have just heard about a maniac axeman who has injured more than 20 people going on a rampage on a train. It's horrific and doesn't bear thinking about.
But is it fair that without any details people automatically assume it has something to do with the religion of Islam?

Of all the atrocities happening these days I feel so sad that after every such incident 1.8 billion Muslims are somehow held responsible. Fair?

Just after a general consensus to pick your brains and see is that really how people think?

OP posts:
HummyMummy72 · 21/07/2016 20:54

Enthusiasm - ask the kids who go shooting up schools/cinemas, ask peadophiles in this country, murderers, rapists etc what religion they identify most with even if they are not practicing, if the answer was Christianity, does that mean Christianity as a whole is responsible? Your way of thinking is a little silly, sorry I don't mean to offend I just can't think of another way to put it at the moment!

HummyMummy72 · 21/07/2016 20:55

Standing - I see your point and your right before I converted I would have called myself a Muslim! But this is precisely my point, I knew nothing about my religion and certainly didn't practice at all, not even slightly. I was Muslim by name certainly not by my actions. So even though I identified as such, I wasn't really one at all.

EnthusiasmDisturbed · 21/07/2016 20:56

I don't think anyone that values freedom and equality would look at Saudi as an example to deal with criminals especially as the law is ignored when it comes to the many royals and their staff

and also how women are treated in court

HummyMummy72 · 21/07/2016 21:02

Can't reply to anymore messages sorry I'm not ignoring just had a long day, got a headache, phone light not helping. Plus DD thinks it's fun to wake up at 4am so I need to sleep!

chilipepper20 · 21/07/2016 21:02

look at the crime rates for Saudi and decide for yourself if they work.

first of all, I don't trust Saudi government statistics. Second, what's not labelled as a crime since it isn't illegal there, women being inferior and subordinate to men, is widespread. Of course, you could stop crimes against women by simply putting every woman in jail, but that of course is a bigger crime in itself. So if crime rates are low because of widespread human rights abuses, I don't consider that a win at all.

About slavery, I know that it isn't a special invention of islam. it was widespread in christian lands as well. But because neither religion gets that most basic question right, that is it wasn't met with unequivocal condemnation, it makes both religions far from the perfect morality.

The trouble with ISIS isn't that they have the right interpretation of Islam, it's that they have a plausible interpretation of it. They aren't insane when they say sex slaves are justified in Islam. By that I mean you would be insane or next to illiterate if you claimed that Green Eggs and Ham justified slavery, because that just isn't a plausible interpretation of that book. Not so with the Quran.

StandingonaBeach · 21/07/2016 21:05

Enthusiasm, there is no way on this earth I would ever advocate the Saudi way of enforcing the law. However I live in a Muslim country. Here we do have a lot of civil unrest. Think tear gas . Burning tyres. However I would not think twice about walking down the street at 1 am in the morning totally alone. I wouldn't be scared. I could leave the keys in my car overnight and it would be there in the morning. I can go out all day and probably not lock my front door. Big difference to back home.

EnthusiasmDisturbed · 21/07/2016 21:06

Where have I said Islam is totally responsible I have said an ideology that is from Islam

Silly Hmm why because I can argue my point well

If many people were using the bible and Christian ideology to harm people yes I would say that there is something in that Christian ideology that is influencing people and we should look at why that is

The crusades were Christian, the many priests that have sexually abused boys were Catholic I am not going to say they are not they used their position and the religion to silence and create fear because it allowed them to

EnthusiasmDisturbed · 21/07/2016 21:08

Having lived in a Muslim country myself I know a women walking home alone at 1am would be deemed as being very strange ....

Being European sadly I know would have been hassled as I was no doubt up for it its just something I knew was not done

peachpudding · 21/07/2016 21:09

"in Islam it is obligatory to follow the law of the land"

So any muslims living in Nazi Germany had to kill Jews?
Any muslims in the Islamic State have to take slaves, rape children and murder homosexuals?

What your saying is that muslims have no morality and in Islam you have to do whatever you are told by the state, no matter how EVIL?

StandingonaBeach · 21/07/2016 21:13

Depends where you are. I think plenty of Western Women walk alone at 1 am in Dubai.
I have grown up where I am. Now in my 40's . In my teens stumbled out of plenty of nightclubs blind drunk, yes, alone at 2-3 am!

peachpudding · 21/07/2016 21:13

HummyMummy72 "Homosexuality is completely forbidden (the act, not being homosexual)"

Homosexuality is NOT an act, what are you talking about. It is the completely natural love of someone who is the same sex. So wtf are you talking about, how can loving someone be forbidden if its not forbidden.

durezz · 21/07/2016 21:16

peach I apologise I don't mean Satan in that evil way. I was referring to the self inside is which chooses evil over good, again bringing it back to morals. So if we have a choice, making the bad choice would be to follow the wrong way as opposed to the good way. We are all born with this in us, it's just up to us how we decide to deal with it.

I'm no scholar and by no means an expert and I put my hands up that I have not done justice to any of the points I tried to convey as there are people much better at getting a clearer message across.

I would like to point out the verse about the strike their heads (beheading). This verse is only meant for during warfare when a single blow to the neck would be quick and easy to disable the enemy. It was used to minimise pain to the enemy and make the killing swift, not like how ISIS are doing these days!

OP posts:
EnthusiasmDisturbed · 21/07/2016 21:21

Yes Dubai is quite different to most countries but i doubt you would seem many local women doing this

It sounds as though you have lived quite a different life to the majority of Muslim women growing up in Muslim countries

StandingonaBeach · 21/07/2016 21:29

Yes, I am not doubting that. It certainly is not without its faults. I am not in Dubai. What I was trying to say was despite the faults , and bit melting pot of nationalitys,where I am in the Gulf, on a daily basis I do feel safe.

peachpudding · 21/07/2016 21:36

HummyMummy72, your just making things worse. Your saying its ok to kill someone who doesn't believe the same as you if your in a fight with them. That is the problem and the justification so many Muslims are using to kill people.

peachpudding · 21/07/2016 21:50

durezz "I was referring to the self inside is which chooses evil over good"
So you mean your brain? What has that got to do with religion then?

Why is such a peaceful religion have a book that spends so much of its text talking about how to kill in fights?

FYI beheading someone is NOT a quick and easy way to kill someone in a fight. It is a barbaric, torturous way to kill someone. The neck cannot be severed easily by a sword blade and would usually involves the executioner hacking away continuously, and that is when the victim is tied down, with neck exposed unable to move. Exactly why ISIS use it now!

HummyMummy72 · 21/07/2016 21:50

"So any muslims living in Nazi Germany had to kill Jews?"

No. If the law stated you HAVE to kill Jews, you pack your bags and get out of that country because it goes against Islam. Just like if UK made it compulsory to drink alcohol, I would pack my bags and leave.

"Any muslims in the Islamic State have to take slaves, rape children and murder homosexuals?"

The Daesh have invented their own religion and cover it with the name of Islam, I've explained this in previous threads not going to go in to it again. They have literally made it ok to rape and murder, Islam or sharia law does not allow either, so again if I was living there I would seek refuge and leave or not follow and face the consequences because it's not a proper law it's made up.
If I was living under proper sharia where it is permissible to chop someone's hand off for stealing, I would either leave if I was uncomfortable living under this law or stay knowing that I personally wouldn't actually chop off anyone's hand or kill someone, because it doesn't work like that. There's a legal system and appointed people to do that. I am just there to respect the law and not go against it in whatever country I reside, if I don't like or agree with the law, I leave.

"What your saying is that muslims have no morality and in Islam you have to do whatever you are told by the state, no matter how EVIL?"

No that's not what I'm saying, that's your strange interpretation of what I'm saying.

Seen a few comments on women and Islam, can't go in to it now but that was a worry when I converted. I read books/Hadith but truly didn't understand how women were viewed and treated until I converted and married etc, women have a high status in Islam and I am respected, I could quote many Hadith but need to sleep. I remember when I was in Saudi if two men were walking towards me they would lower their gaze and make enough space for me to pass. The roads there are crazy you just cross and hope you don't get hit, again when a woman stepped out the drivers would stop and be more cautious and the best was buying fast food, women get served first!! I was not complaining lol.
I have never felt more respected being a Muslim woman, my husband is loving, kind, gentle, God fearing and everything I could have hoped for.

Ok this really is my last post I need sleep!

HummyMummy72 · 21/07/2016 21:58

"Why is such a peaceful religion have a book that spends so much of its text talking about how to kill in fights?"

There are over 6,000 verses in the Quran. You quoted ten lines that were taken out of context and have been explained to you time and time again.

"your just making things worse. Your saying its ok to kill someone who doesn't believe the same as you if your in a fight with them. That is the problem and the justification so many Muslims are using to kill people"

Oh gosh your really clutching at straws now lol..that is not what I'm saying..when our army/US army go out to war do we expect them NOT to kill the enemy? Of course not. They're not going to fix things over a cup of tea and a chocolate digestive, it's war.
In Islam, when you are in war and the opposition is killing you because of your religion, it is permissible to kill them. It's battle, that's what happens. Man on man.
If I argue with John down the road because he's having a late night barbecue with alcohol flowing and music blaring when I'm trying to read my Quran and pray, I cannot kill him. In fact, I cannot say anything at all. He has his rights, I have mine. There's no issue.

Puzzledandpissedoff · 21/07/2016 22:21

I'm interested in the several posts telling us that the Quran's directives to kill actually only refer to a battle situation ... again, isn't this a question of interpretation?

We're often told that some perceived insult amounts to the west having "declared war on Islam", and while we've obviously done no such thing, still this excuse is used to justify various atrocities

Now, I'm sure that many ordinary, peaceful, decent muslims would insist that this interpretation is completely wrong, but my point is this: who's to say that they're correct, and that the killers and their supporters are mistaken in their understanding of these texts?

StrangeLookingParasite · 21/07/2016 22:21

Surely, what you really want is for Muslims to cease to be Muslims?

Well I'd like to see that, but extended across all religions. Honestly, the rules are stupid - and you know what happens if you disobey them? Nothing.

As for women, Islam gave women rights long before the western world ever did.
Then the western world caught up and surpassed them, actually treating women as being of the same worth as men, rather than insisting, eg, that their testimony was worth half that of a man. I really, really don't care how advanced they might have been back in the 7th century. It's no longer relevant.

People fail to see that this world is just a by pass for the hereafter

Religious dogma.

It's difficult to fight for Islam amongst western views as the world has become too liberal. The values Islam teaches are not old fashioned but for all ages. It's the people in western countries who are now going backwards as there was a time people used to roam around naked. Over the years people are going back to that and slowly slowly showing more skin. The reason Islam teaches modest dress is to save a person from Satan's desires. Everyone has a Satan inside them and this is just how we have been created. The test is to see how we deal with that, so life is a trial really and a test on morals. And the Quran tells men first to lower their gaze, then women. And why? Because every individual is prone to lustful desires and by averting our eyes and keeping contact way from the opposite sex we are protecting ourselves from negative thoughts of Satan. You will think it's so backwards and boring because of the way you have been brought up and the society we live in. But Islam protects from many vices, for example drinking alcohol. It's not allowed because a person loses their inhibitions to think properly and becomes vulnerable. Likewise drugs.

Ooh look, a whole lot of religious dogma, none of which I believe. I don't believe in Satan. I don't believe I 'have Satan inside', and it's so flagrantly an attempt to control people, I'm surprised anyone does believe it.
I don't believe people, at least in the northern hemisphere, ever got around naked; it would have killed them.

StrangeLookingParasite · 21/07/2016 22:32

I was referring to the self inside is which chooses evil over good, again bringing it back to morals. So if we have a choice, making the bad choice would be to follow the wrong way as opposed to the good way.

But your ideas of good and evil are all learned from what you've been instructed with by your religion. Sexual contact outside marriage: evil, but for me, it really doesn't matter, as long as it's safe, sane and consensual. Homosexuality: evil. Actually entirely normal, including in the animal kingdom, for all the 'unnatural' ranters. And so it goes on.

durezz · 21/07/2016 22:41

No one is forcing you to believe. It's your choice not to.
Everyone is just putting across their veiws as we are entitled to and tbh this could go on forever. I welcome other people's opinions, it shows we live in a diverse world.

But at the same time I don't want to make any enemies here as I'm sure you don't want to so it's best to just agree to disagree and leave it at that.

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EnthusiasmDisturbed · 21/07/2016 22:48

If we are constantly coming up agains the argument ISIS are not Muslim (along with other terrorist groups) where does it get us in understanding why so many young Muslim men are choosing to join and many are coming from Muslim countries

Do we just dismiss the religious involvement and if we were to bomb ISIS are all other Muslims going to support us. What is non ISIS people get killed who are Muslim who is to blame then

fourmummy · 21/07/2016 23:13

I have been following this thread with interest. I've recently read several works suggesting that Islamic reformation is key. Here are some extracts illustrating this from a great article: www.huffingtonpost.com/ali-a-rizvi/an-open-letter-to-moderat_b_5930764.html

“You may find yourself asking, how is this possible? The book of the Jews is not much different from my book. How, then, are the majority of them secular? How is it that most don’t take too seriously the words of the Torah/Old Testament — originally believed to be the actual word of God revealed to Moses much like the Quran to Muhammad — yet still retain strong Jewish identities? Can this happen with Islam and Muslims?Clearly from the above, the answer is a tried-and-tested yes. And it must start by dissociating Islamic identity from Muslim identity — by coming together on a sense of community, not ideology.
*
The word “moderate” has lost its credibility. Fareed Zakaria has referred to Middle Eastern moderates as a “fantasy.” Even apologists like Nathan Lean are pointing out that the use of this word isn’t helping anyone.
Islam needs reformers, not moderates. And words like “reform” just don’t go very well with words like “infallibility.” The purpose of reform is to change things, fix the system, and move it in a new direction. And to fix something, you have to acknowledge that it’s broken — not that it looks broken, or is being falsely portrayed as broken by the wrong people — but that it’s broken. That is your first step to reformation".

...and this is from a review of Rizvi's book, The Atheist Muslim - "One of the greatest challenges of our time is to inspire a secular Enlightenment throughout the Muslim community. But the obscurantism practiced by so many 'moderate' Muslims, along with the hypocrisy of their liberal apologists, has made this project immensely more difficult. If you want to understand why so many free, educated people continue to lie supine before the threat of Islamist theocracy, read "The Atheist Muslim"

MistressMia · 21/07/2016 23:27

I'm too tired to post a point by point rebuttal to the propaganda from HummyMummy so instead I'll let the author mentioned above do it:

-------------------------
by Ali A. Rizvi

I recently posted the following statement to my Facebook timeline:

“The worst of beasts, in our view, are the followers of Allah—those who believe in Islam. They’re the ones you make treaties with, but they break those treaties every time because they have no fear of the law.”

The statement, of course, is blatantly bigoted hate speech against Muslims. But it is not something I have written. It is a passage from the Quran, verses 8:55-56, with references to disbelievers replaced by “followers of Allah” and “those who believe in Islam.” You can read the original verse here.

Several commenters jumped on it, accusing me of taking these verses “out of context.”

“It’s a warfare verse,” said one. “It’s like taking a sentences out of a military book. If you are at war, then I think its fair that you can say it. But it is only applied in self-defense. You have to have a just reason for it.”

Okay, I told him. Let’s change the context then. Suppose the U.S. is at war with ISIS or Al Qaeda, and the president says:

“The worst of beasts, in our view, are the followers of Allah—those who believe in Islam. They’re the ones you make treaties with, but they break those treaties every time because they have no fear of the law.”

Does that read any better?

“It does if the fight is on the land of the one being attacked,” he replied. “The aggressor can be identified easily by where the war takes place. What if the attacked people are fighting in self-defense?”

Fine. Let’s suppose ISIS or Al Qaeda has attacked New York City, and the president says, in response:

“The worst of beasts, in our view, are the followers of Allah—those who believe in Islam. They’re the ones you make treaties with, but they break those treaties every time because they have no fear of the law.”

Better?

The commenter persisted. “But the verse wasn’t for the general public. It was for the soldiers fighting in the war. It is only talking about people who break treaties.” And so on.

I won’t repeat the passage again. The point was obvious: however you paint the modified quote, it still reads as hate speech against all Muslims. There is no “context” that justifies labeling an entire people “the worst of beasts.”

And herein lies the problem: if there were a book that talked about Muslims the way the Quran talks about disbelievers, heads would roll. Literally.

The primary argument we hear against critics and satirists of religion like the Charlie Hebdo cartoonists—who satirized all religions, not just Islam—is that their speech “offends billions of people.”

But what about the religions they’re targeting? The Abrahamic holy books—respected and revered by billions worldwide—prescribe the killing of disbelievers (Quran 8:12-13, 47:4; Leviticus 24:16); order their adherents to fight and enslave those with differing beliefs, a la ISIS (Quran 9:29-30, Deuteronomy 20:10-18); endorse wife-beating (Quran 4:34) and the stoning to death of non-virginal brides (Deuteronomy 22:20-21); order women to quietly submit to the authority of men (1 Timothy 2:11-12); and mandate the public lashing of fornicators (Quran 24:2) and the killing of homosexuals (Leviticus 20:13).

Who should really be offended here? If hate speech were really the issue, these books would be the first to go.

When confronted with these facts, apologists will often respond by saying these texts should not be read “literally”—a concern that is certainly well-founded considering their contents. They know how terrible these books would sound if they weren’t liberally “interpreted” (read: distorted, sanitized), or read the way one would read any other book. When the literal word of a deity requires repeated, long-winded explanations from his human followers simply to prevent it being interpreted to mean what it actually says, it doesn’t make a great case for divine authorship. If anything can mean anything, the whole thing becomes meaningless.

The reality is, religious moderates take their scripture “out of context” more than they’d like to think. Islamic apologists, for instance, like to quote the verse 2:256, which says there is “no compulsion in religion.” They won’t tell you (and many don’t know themselves) that the very next verse, 2:257, says that those who do choose to disbelieve will be “companions of the Fire; they will abide eternally therein.” You’ll also hear them quote verse 5:32, which says, “Whoever kills a soul…it is as if he had slain all mankind. And whoever saves one—it is as if he had saved mankind entirely.” But again, if you read on to the very next verse, 5:33, you’ll see that Allah wants anyone opposing him or his messenger to “be killed or crucified…their hands and feet be cut off from opposite sides,” for “causing corruption.”

What is more offensive? Those words? Or those who choose to reject and criticize them?

It is true that a religion should not be defined by the actions of its adherents. However, it can be defined by the contents of its canonical texts—like the Quran, which is the one thing common to all Islamic sects and denominations, fundamentalist or moderate. The fact that most Muslims are non-violent doesn’t automatically erase all of the violent verses from the Quran, in the same way that that Jews eating pork or having premarital sex doesn’t mean either act is suddenly allowed by the Jewish faith. In the words of Alishba Zarmeen: most humans are more moral than the scriptures they hold sacred.
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