To blame Islam even for this??

[durezz]

I have just heard about a maniac axeman who has injured more than 20 people going on a rampage on a train. It's horrific and doesn't bear thinking about.
But is it fair that without any details people automatically assume it has something to do with the religion of Islam?

Of all the atrocities happening these days I feel so sad that after every such incident 1.8 billion Muslims are somehow held responsible. Fair?

Just after a general consensus to pick your brains and see is that really how people think?

haven't read the whole thread, but the media was bending over backwards not to mention the fact that he was waving an Deash flag and shouting in arabic..............

No, we're not full of hate. We desperately want this life destroying terrorism to stop.

But we know, that much like any problem,in order to find a solution you have to admit there is a problem in the first place

Deny Deny Deny helps no one. Neither does refusal to actually discuss the issue.

Islam isn't a problem.
Islam, however, has a problem.

You lot just want to hate. Typical cowardly Islamist. Hiding from any robust challenge to the acceptability of some of their beliefs by running away and claiming hate, racism, Islamophobia and other category of victimhood they can.

What doesn't qualify as hate of course - is - imams telling men that no woman has the right to refuse him sex, referring to women that go out not wrapped in a Burqa as 'uncovered meat'. The justification for violence conveyed in the Mosques. Wife beaters sent to have a chat with Muslim elders and not the Police. Rape and torture gangs targeting 'white whores', all over England. Honour-based violence, forced marriage of children, the execution of gays and apostates, veiling, stoning, subjugation, and FGM.

Confront them with these facts and you're a 'hater', who's knowledge of Islam is 'insufficient'. Because if you had spend a large part of your life swallowing the myths and fairy tales about that some semi-literate cleric tells you happened 1600 years ago – then these issues wouldn't disgust you so much?

Even the cartoonists, writers, filmmakers, artists, and journalists, assassinated or forced to live fugitive lives under security protection, (here in the West if you don't mind) and the blatant hate-speech in the Koran taken literally by Muslim mass murderers all over the globe, all this is excused away with the 'No True Scotsman' response and YOU, yes YOU are the one who's full of hate for mentioning it.

There are some brilliant, courageous ex muslims such as Ayaan Hirsi Ali, Maryam Namazie, Maajid Nawaz all fighting (under constant death threats of course) to bring some kind of reform to islam. Google them up and support them folks, please. They are three of the most courageous people I've ever encountered and we desperately need more like them.

Superb post, supersoft

Among much else, something I can never get my head around is the concept of a death sentence for apostates. I've no doubt that arguments rage back and forth about whether or not it's precisely mandated in the Quran, but my point is this: in the 21st century, who could even begin to consider this acceptable?

The Pope and the Archbishop of Canterbury both advocate that the Bible is a holy book, a sacred text, but one that needs to be read with intelligence, education, contemplation and context.

But you can find individual sects who are "fundamentalists" within Christianity. They aren't mainstream and they tend to be looked down upon for their "backwards" views by the majority of the world's Christians.

Surely, this is the mainstream view of Muslims on the Koran as well? Surely, most have enough sophistication to discount some of the unreasonable bits as being out of context. Therefore it is the "fundamentalist" elements that need to be tackled.
(sorry not sure about the preferred spelling of Quran.)

Great post supersoft. I'd like to add to that list Nawal Sadawi, an amazing Egyptian feminist who was writing about the subjugation of women under Islam in the 1970s. The Hidden Face of Eve is a classic ( although not for the squeamish; her account of FGM carried out on her as a child haunted me for a long time.

I'd also recommend the wonderful FB campaign My Stealthy Freedom where Iranian women defy the law by posing without their veils. We should be supporting people like this, not betraying them by making cowardly excuses for their oppressors.

No Elly, no comparisons. Check out reputable polls of European Muslims and their views on apostasy, blasphemy and homosexuality, it makes depressing reading.

MistressMia Thu 21-Jul-16 02:37:05

We are so lucky to have you on these boards. Your posts are amazing.

Super, great post.

So true.

We should be supporting people like this, not betraying them by making cowardly excuses for their oppressors

Wholeheartedly agree.

Nawal Sadawi is indeed another remarkable, brilliant and very brave woman. There are many in fact and I'm sorry not to mention all of them, they deserve our full attention and support. Thank you Puzzled and you raise an important point. Why? The problem is, in the Koran or not, (it is disputed) is of little relevance. As it is conveyed in the mosques by Imams who those gathered, believe speaks directly the word of Allah.

Shins thanks for brining the My Stealthy Freedom campaign to my attention. You'd think it would go without saying that these people as well as the others mentioned, would be getting the full, unequivocal support of every descent, humanitarian person. Especially here in The West, where one has the freedom to do just that? Sadly though this isn't the case.

There are many people, especially those on the political left (though not exclusively them) that support the Islamofascists that attack these brave people and whom hold on to this narrative of 'Muslims as perpetual victims' deserving of special treatment. This is helping no one.

Nawal Sadawi is am amazing woman very brave and has done sown fantastic work highlighting women's struggles in Egypt and other parts of the Middle East. She doesn't portray the women being weak and subservient but that society has limited their role and religion is used to uphold that.

The problem we face is that many are expecting Muslims to pull apart he Koran and be critical of it and that is just not going to happen. So I understand why people get defensive all the time but we should be working more from an angle why are certain areas of he religion taken to extreme and being used in an ideology

The problem is, in the Koran or not, (it is disputed) is of little relevance. As it is conveyed in the mosques by Imams who those gathered, believe speaks directly the word of Allah

For me, what you've said is very much the crux of the matter, dealing as it does with what happens at community level

I don't doubt that the majority of imams are as horrified as everyone else over these atrocities, but the problem seems to be what to do about those who take a very different view, especially as almost any intervention - or even comment - by non-muslims is clearly unacceptable to some

I'm reminded of a muslim employee, who once told me she worried about a situation developing where all mosques would be required to have some sort of observer present. It seemed an odd thing to say, not least because it wouldn't do anything to address influence outside the mosques; nevertheless I was mostly interested that she mentioned it at all

(apologies for mis-spelling her surname, it's El Saadawi. But amazing how few of my friends have heard of her, the kind of well-meaning but misguided people who view all criticism of Islam as racist while remaining ignorant of its theology, history, the divisions within Islam itself and its cultural practices.The same people who rail against the oppression of the Catholic church. Just baffles me.)

There are many people ... whom hold on to this narrative of 'Muslims as perpetual victims' deserving of special treatment

It's perhaps also interesting that I was once deleted for suggesting the same thing; apparently it was considered to be unkind at a time when muslims felt under attack

It seems the narrative really has moved on ...

Oops i c&p shins post I knew who you meant

The narrative is changing. I feel there is less and less they are not real Muslims narrative maybe many Muslims are fed up of saying this I am sure they are as they can't identify with the terrorists anymore than other people can but they can't deny what is written in the Koran and that more and more young Muslims are being drawn to this ideology

The people who are so against Islam are those who don't truly understand it and they take false meanings from different sources. If somewhere a Hadith (saying of holy prophet) says something negative, the Quran goes above and beyond it for clarification and perhaps that Hadith has been wrongly portrayed.
I do know that there are verses also in Quran where it does mention to kill but God is referring to the action to be killed/gotten rid of, and not the individual.

As for women, Islam gave women rights long before the western world ever did. People fail to see that this world is just a by pass for the hereafter and a woman has just as much right as a man to attain spiritual nearness to God. A woman covers herself to protect herself from the evil eye and many Muslim women out there will tell you the same that they are more liberated in a headscarf. Those minority individuals who come out get press attention (and tour attention obv) because it is a negative way the religion is expressed, and that's just how media works, to bring to light the few negative stories and ignore the mainstream peaceful Muslim society.

There are 1.8 billion Muslims in the world. If Islam really was a religion of violence you'd all be dead by now. Stop letting the media tell you who to hate.

It's difficult to fight for Islam amongst western views as the world has become too liberal. The values Islam teaches are not old fashioned but for all ages.
It's the people in western countries who are now going backwards as there was a time people used to roam around naked. Over the years people are going back to that and slowly slowly showing more skin. The reason Islam teaches modest dress is to save a person from Satan's desires. Everyone has a Satan inside them and this is just how we have been created. The test is to see how we deal with that, so life is a trial really and a test on morals.
And the Quran tells men first to lower their gaze, then women. And why? Because every individual is prone to lustful desires and by averting our eyes and keeping contact way from the opposite sex we are protecting ourselves from negative thoughts of Satan. You will think it's so backwards and boring because of the way you have been brought up and the society we live in.
But Islam protects from many vices, for example drinking alcohol. It's not allowed because a person loses their inhibitions to think properly and becomes vulnerable. Likewise drugs.

But as usual people (not all) will bring forth all the negative they can find about a religion based on actions of individuals.

Like I said before, this is the time where even Muslim countries are not adhering to the teachings of the Quran correctly and are making the religion look negative and contradictory.

If somewhere a Hadith (saying of holy prophet) says something negative, the Quran goes above and beyond it for clarification and perhaps that Hadith has been wrongly portrayed

But doesn't that depend on someone saying, in effect, "hang on that's wrong; the Quran actually says such-and-such"? Further, since not all muslims will read the Arabic of the Quran, aren't they then in a position of having to trust the portrayal they're given - which is course brings us right back to the role of imams?

I do know that there are verses also in Quran where it does mention to kill but God is referring to the action to be killed/gotten rid of, and not the individual

Not entirely sure about that, I'm afraid ... after all this sounds pretty "individual" to me:

Quran (5:33) - The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off ...

I'm not going to argue with you duezz because there's no point but I do want to correct your false assertion that critics of Islam get their "false" ideas from the media. Many of us have travelled and lived in Muslim countries, have Muslim friends and family and have even studied the religious texts and wider history. Your beliefs are your beliefs. But I do not want them to have any kind of influence in Europe because they do not belong here. We do not want our artists scared of being killed over a book or a cartoon. We don't want our daughters harassed and called names because they don't cover themselves. We do not need to be "protected" from drinking alcohol, it's our own choice. We do not want to bypass animal welfare laws to pander to some 7th century book. We do not, frankly, believe Islam has anything much to offer us when we look around the world. Europe has welcomed many people from round the world but Europeans are quite happy to stay secular, democratic, free, with equality between men and women. Most of us don't believe in God or Satan. We have gay friends and family. Our societies are far from perfect but the last thing we need is more religion, believe me.

A woman covers herself to protect herself from the evil eye

Durezz - This is not how the evil eye works. Covering will not stop someone giving you the evil eye. The reason women cover up so much is because they are forced to. In Europe, they cover up to convey that they want to remain separate to the main culture.

And duezz, everyone must walk their own path in life without pressure to any religion. That is the main difference between life in the West and life in the East. It is up to each individual to make choices, make mistakes, rectify them and carry on. To be under the control - all your life - of an ideology makes you belong not to yourself. You are a slave.

Having such a closed mind closes you to so many different viewpoints, different people and different ways of being.

A man having lustful feelings towards a woman he finds attractive is perfectly natural and he is able to control himself as women at when they have these feelings to claim they are not is to give men an excuse

And when the Koran came about it was progressive for women the rest of the world has moved on that includes some Muslim countries the world hasn't become too liberal many countries are working towards men and women being seen as equal

I know I'm going to get loads of disagreement and you're all entitled to them. They're your views. And I'm not trying to impose Islam on anyone. I love you all despite our differences. I'm just trying to bring a little light to the negativity that everyone bangs on about.
I don't want to argue either, we're all different and it's lovely to be able to live in a society where everyone is respected as an individual. I have no problems with other people's beliefs as it's what they have chosen to follow.

As a Muslim though I find it appealing that there are Muslims here to try to impose their religion on British people and make them feel inferior. How ridiculous! No one has the right to compel others or make them feel less inferior to others. I sympathise with the people here who have to put up with it.
I know there are groups of extreme 'muslims' who do protest against the government and call for Sharia law to be implemented (IMO they are shaming the religion) but it is against the Quran as we are taught to be loyal to the country we live in. It's quite sad really, this is what I meant about Muslims out there being misguided