DD is starting school in September, but isn't toilet trained.

[BarkingMad12]

Hi. Not sure what to do. DD isn't toilet trained yet, we haven't rushed it at all and did wait until she showed signs, but she never did so we have slowly started trying more and more but it isn't going great. I'm worried as she's closer and closer to going to school.

Do I tell them? If so, when? Also, is she allowed to go? Even though she isn't trained? Advice would be great

zzzzz yes sorry, I was trying to reiterate that original point.

Cubtrouble, your child's school is breaking the law.

There is a world of difference between a child with medical needs and those with parents who cant be arsed.

It is the latter that causes problems for the former.

If there are 2 4 year olds in nappies in a class, one with medical needs, one whose parents have not toilet trained their child - I would say both those children have needs.

If the parents genuinely can't be arsed (and this would be a minority of children) to the point that they are keeping their child in nappies, do you not think that child needs help and support?

If it is just that they (like the op) have tried but failed, then that could be for 2 reasons, either there is something going on that has yet to be spotted with the Childs development or health, or the child is just a bit slower to hit that milestone.

If a child had speech difficulties because their parents had neglected to spend any time talking to them (again this would be a tiny minority) would they be any less deserving of support in school than a child with a speech disorder?

Pull ups would be better than nappies because most reception DCs can sort themselves out after an accident if they are wearing pull ups or just pants. Send in spare ones and a bag for wet/dirty ones.

Nappies are a PITA to change and sometimes DCs have to wait until the teacher is free or a TA is available. The rest of the DCs can't be left unsupervised and a DC in wet or dirty nappies will be quite uncomfortable having to wait.

maki79
Why is he going to be in pull-ups for a year??. Yes it is definatley linked to spina bifida.

Re: the impact on the rest of the class, this from SlipperyJack bears repeating:

"I wanted to quote from this document, which (on my understanding) is viewed as setting out best practice generally in this area.

"It is not helpful to assume that the child has failed to achieve full continence because the parent hasn’t bothered to try. There are very few parents/carers for whom this would be true. In the unlikely event this is the only reason why the child has not become continent then continence achievement should be uncomplicated if a positive and structured approach is used in partnership
with the parent/carer.""

hazeyjane I think it would be awful if the child with parents who can't be bothered is judged or doesn't get the help they need but I would think it is unfair for the parents not to bother as I think it takes help away from the children who can't get there even with lots of effort. That was a bit of a mouthful but I hope you get what I mean.

A slightly different example I volunteer at school to give lots of one to one with children who have fallen behind with reading, I always do a little bit with some of the other children so it never looks like certain children get more attention/have a problem. The thing that is clear to me is that most of the children who are doing well get lots of help at home (from home/school book) and most of the children who are struggling are getting very little help at home. Of course this isn't 100% as at least one of the boys who is struggling is getting loads of support at home but it is a definite pattern. I feel sad for the kids who have fallen behind when they just need some help, on the other hand I feel great satisfaction at the progress they have made and I really think when their tests results are through next week there will only be 2 who are below the expected standard out of the 8 I started with a year ago. I am no expert but I hear them read, chat about the stories, explain the words they don't understand, talk about books I liked at their age etc. I really want them to start loving reading not just seeing it as a chore. The class teacher and TA can't spend that sort of time with 8 children, they probably could with the two. So that colours my view as it is possible that some of the six could still be struggling without the extra help and possible the two who seem to have more serious problems could have had more input if the other six had been able to keep up originally. From my point of view I love doing it but it would have been better for the kids if I wasn't necessary.

Maki a friend of mine had a little one with chronic constipiation, I remember her being at the end of her tether with it but it did get resolved and yes it did take about a year. Her little one is now all grown up and married and it is a dim distant memory. I hope it all goes well.

I was once chatting to mums waiting for my child to come out of an activity. One parent was saying she was asking potential schools what they could do for her gifted and talented child as she was worried they wouldn't meet his demanding needs. We all asked how he was gifted. She said he had taught himself to read at age 3. I gently probed this statement, and after a lot of drip feeding discovered that a) she had bought the jolly phonics book, CD and worksheets and b) taken her child through them herself, rather than him teaching himself anything, and c) when demonstrating to us that he could really read now he was four, he failed to read the simple sentence in a children's book which she presented him with. I felt so sorry for her, to be so insecure that she had to latch onto this crazy gifted thing, but even more sorry for the child, who had obviously had his childhood marred by early reading lessons and a feeling of failure because he didn't pass a public test.

My daughter could read at 2, no one taught her we just found out she could. She was always fascinated with symbols e.g. logos and brand labels and we thought nothing of it. One day I realised her she was reading things she wasn't familiar with and out of interest we wrote out some of the things she would point to and say like Asda, Lloyds Bank, Boots that I normally would think she recognised the shape and colour. She could read them all, we explored more and eventually discovered she could read more words than she could say, I would say can you see x and she would point to it. I went through the teacher friends saying she couldn't read and then see them giving her a book from their shelves and being surprised that she could sit and read it. When a teacher came to playgroup to meet the children going to her school she noticed my daughter taking a book from the library pile and reading to her friends. She asked why she wasn't at school that day and was told she wasn't school age yet and she started talking to me. She said I must speak to the school she was going to and make it clear she could read as she said lots of parents say children can read when it isn't really the case. As predicted the school she was going to wouldn't accept she could read, insisted she was going to start on pre-reading skills. I spoke to a couple of friends who were teachers and both said they didn't approve of home schooling but they would advise me to keep her at home for a couple of years as they thought school would be negative for her. We kept her at home for four years, she did lots of fun stuff and very little school work and when she started school she was tested and we were told her reading was off the scale for the tests they had but would certainly be 16 plus.

My point is some 2 year olds can read and interestingly my daughter was quite late with some milestones, her co-ordination was poor and her speech wasn't great. She was toilet trained at 2 even though she couldn't jump or hop or stand on her toes.

Randomer What are the advantages ( long term) of being able to read at 2/3?
I don't know really, obviously my daughter was bright but her two brother who were about average learning to read and one who was late have all ended up with good degrees and post grad qualifications the same as her. It did have a short term advantage as she was a child who wouldn't sleep and the rule was in her room quitely reading during "sleep" hours. I couldn't cope with a child who needed a lot less sleep than I did for years and years so I think it saved my sanity.

The interesting thing, from my point of view, is that put of my four the one who loves reading most is the late reader. make of that what you will.

I don't think teaching your child to read early necessarily means they've been robbed of anything. My two eldest went to school knowing their basic alphabet sounds...I'm not a hothouser.
My youngest, who is two, knows numbers up to 1000, can add and subtract within 10, knows his letters and their basic sounds, can write some letters and read simple CVC words and other words he has memorised by shape.
This is simply because the things he loves cars, trains, letters and numbers. He's been exposed to them through his older brothers and has run with it. I do help him read and draw letters when he approaches me and asks for help, which is several times a day.
He isn't a genius, he isn't hothoused and I don't know if he will carry on at the same pace or drop it for other things. I don't care if he learns these things now or not.

An interesting thing just occurred to me, isn't it strange that if a child needs extra help be it with physical activities or academically they have a right to it. My child who could read fluently at 4 and who had alot of general knowledge, was good at maths and had a great fascination with the Old Testament and could put me to shame on Old Testament stories even after my years in a Roman Catholic School wasn't offered anything. All I asked for was that she be allowed to read something appropriate at not start on reading readiness books i.e. books without words and progress through every reading books in the scheme and that wasn't possible.

zzzz but the difference is the two with more problems had to have that help, in my book the other six had potentially been let down at home. It might not have been that as initially parents might have given alot of help but perhaps children weren't ready and parents got discouraged. My point is parents have got a responsibility to do a certain amount and as professional help isn't limitless then the children of the ones that "don't bother" take help away from others. Obviously the children still need the help and actually it has been lovely for me but that is a bit selfish.

zzzzz maybe we should have fought more for a different approach with daughter. To be honest when we visited the school I didn't like the approach of the teacher in reception so was actually happy to postpone starting school. I remember they were doing a topic about food and she said something, in quite a disapproving tone, about "half of them don't even realise chips are made from potatoes." and she just sounded so judgemental about it and the 4 and 5 year olds looked so dejected. I can't quite explain it but I just didn't think it was a good environment for a 4 year old.

My older two went to a different primary school and maybe I was spoilt as they had the most fantastic reception teacher.

I home schooled the youngest as well and for him it was sort of the opposite, I just didn't feel he was ready for school. I would find it hard to say which one needed more time at home the most, with the right teacher they would probably both have been fine.

I got the impression the school just saw me as a pushy mum but I think even then they could have said they would obviously look at what she could do when she started not just dismiss it.

zzzzz I don't think they were less worthy, my disappointment is with the parents not the child. They are actually all great and I will miss them over the summer. I think there is a communication gap between us as I don't know why you think I would think they are LESS worthy, I have said that selfishly it has been great for me.

zzzzz I am going to leave the thread as I feel you are deliberately misrepresenting what I am saying. Don't know why but good luck.

Actually zzzzz I am quite upset at what you said. "My" eight kids are lovely and I have had such joy helping them find out how much they can enjoy reading and the idea that I give up a day a week to explore reading with them means I don't think they are worthy is really hurtful.