to think it's OK for a guy to be in the ladies if he's with his daughter?

[laurenwiltxx]

I'm reading alot about the issue with trans and toilets recently and got me thinking about times my brother has had to take his daughter to the toilet and was taking her to the Men's (when disabled toilets weren't there or out of order ect) and I protested he take her into the women's as it wasn't appropriate considering men have there things out at the urinals and things, and seats are more likely to be peed on ect. So he began doing so and got alot of looks from women. Ive been thinking about it alot more and do understand its a really hard one. What would you say daddies in the ladies with daughters or should take them in the men's?

How might a young woman who is changing her sanpro feel about a man in the ladies???!

Do you normally change your sanitary protection in front of strangers? I really don't see what the fuss is. Toilets have lockable cubicles.

Young children can be in the "wrong" loo. Adult men shouldn't be.

Hmmmmm this stinks!!!

I think this thread is ridiculous. Personally I think around 7 unless there is special needs children are old enough to go on their own.

If there is some particular reason why an 8 year old girl can't I am struggling to see what is so terrible about her father accompanying her to a toilet with single , usable cubicles. Does her father have x ray vision? I would not take an 8 year old girl into a urinal- I don't want to see, hear or smell men peeing so why would she. I would imagine there are men who don't want to pee in front of 8 year old girls.

Young children can be in the "wrong" loo. Adult men shouldn't be

Does that apply to the female poster on another who is accompanying her 8 year old son in to an open male changing room ?
What exactly is a father accompanied by his daughter going to do ? Can he see through doors?

My partner would never take our 5 year old girl into the ladies, and he won't take her into the disabled toilets because he thinks it's inappropriate in case anyone who really needs the facilities is kept waiting, so he takes her to the gents. I have no problem with this, she knows men wee standing up and she isnt going to see anything she hasn't seen before she likes trying to see standing up like a man However she always voices her disgust to me that the boys toilets smell

Honestly doesn't bother me either way, all he'll see is a row of closed doors and some people reapplying lippy.

I still don't understand how all men at the urinals are 'safe' men and little girls can urinate in the same 2ft radius as them. But one man in the ladies loos is an inherent danger?
Sorry, don't get it. I think all toilets should be unisex nowadays anyway. If you are locked in a cubicle what does it matter if a man is a few feet away? Men can be a few feet away from you in alley ways, lifts, multi storey car parks, all places where sadly, assaults can happen.
I also find it highly unlikely that a would be sex pest would take his daughter with him while he was off doing whatever everyone is scared he will be doing. 'He' whoever he is, is a fellow parent trying to take his kid for a wee and I wouldn't give a flying fig if a man came into the ladies holding the hand of a little girl.

I would be quite happy with unisex loos. But I don't think the outrage over the idea of men bringing their daughters into the ladies is about safety. It's about people's idea of decency and the idea that it's embarrassing (or maybe just more embarrassing) for someone of the opposite sex to see flashes of underwear (or penis) or hear the sounds of urinating or even be aware of general grooming practices.

So when people talk about a "safe" place most of them are talking about socially or culturally safe, not physically.

I still don't understand how all men at the urinals are 'safe' men and little girls can urinate in the same 2ft radius as them. But one man in the ladies loos is an inherent danger?*

I think it's more that a little girl wouldn't go in to a mans toilet alone, therefore even if one of those men isn't safe then their not likely to try anything in front of the child's male relative. Where as a women's toilet women do go alone. Therefore a man in that female only space is a threat. And as said some where up thread, previously sexually attacked women may feel very uneasy about being taken suprise by an innocent man in what is expected as a female only space.

Of course this solved by unisex toilets, I'm not sure what the problem is, those who don't like them do you make your male relatives use seperate bathrooms to your female ones at home?! That said I don't know about unisex toilets that are just a big room with cubicals I think I would feel uneasy about that. But we have a block of the ones that are each toilet in a seperate room in my local town. Their the nicer toilets in the town. Their cleaner then both the other public toilets. Get less vandalism both other sets have had to be closed because of this, yes even the women's, in one set the women's was closed and not the men's because of the vile state some teen women had left it in. There is a set of urinals in a seperate room that is marked men only.

Worra I'm northern England and my dad always asked a random lady to take us to the toilet if we were out shopping with him (when we were little not once we got past about 8).

It's only reading this thread has made me realise maybe it's not the done thing. It always seemed quite logical to me if a bit inconvenient for the lady who had to take two random kids to the toilet.

Oh, FFS, most DC from 4 onwards have to go to a loo at school which is very like most public loos. That is, it has toilet cubicles with lockable doors, and a communal area with sinks and towels and/or dryers. So there is no reason why you should not send them into the women's loo on their own, in most cases, from that age.

There are exceptions, such as loos in a park, where one might be concerned about allowing a child in alone. In that case, the male parent/carer should discreetly allow their charge to use the men's. They may be able to wait until there was no one in.

This is really such a non-issue.

I'm surprised some people manage to cope with actual problems, if this sort of thing takes up their brain space.

It wouldn't bother me at all if she was young enough to need help. He's not going in to use the toilet, he's going to help his child use the "correct" toilet.

I'm in the UK btw.

Firstly there are loads of practical reasons why younger children can't go to a public toilet alone. To suggest otherwise is absurd - have a think.

Secondly. This isn't an issue outside of Mumsnet. No one actually thinks like this, they just get on with their lives using the correct toilet.

urinals are gross.

Unisex? I think i'd feel uncomfortable in a properly unisex loo with cubicles. Might get used to it. Don't know if i'd like to be a lone woman in one with a man or if a group if men wandered in. I've been in one in a hostel and some men were staring and then crowding round me and my friend at the sinks. I also know females who have been assaulted in public loos - not sure how they would feel.

Very often you see signs seeing male attendant on duty, would you run out horrified

Oh and if there is a male cleaner in the toilet I leave until he's finished

Why? I genuinely cannot see what is so terrifying or what the fuss is about.

Lass - i can't see why you can't see why some others feel uncomfortable or wary.

Throws me to have a male cleaner in thebloos too.

SanityClause, that ignores the other issue - what if it's the parent who needs to use the loo? Would you leave a 4 year old unattended outside public toilets? I wouldn't.

No Bambini I can't. What do you think a male toilet cleaner is going to do?

A male cleaner in the loos is different- he's easily identifiable, and his employer will have carried out identity and presumably DBS checks before employing him. An unidentified man in the toilet could be anybody.

And again, I'm surprised at all these women's toilets with perfectly secure lockable doors on all toilets- in my experience there are always a couple that can't be locked securely.

Lass - isn't it enough that women tell you they feel uncomfortable with men in places where they are used to seeing only other females. Places where they conduct more basic bodily functions like peeing, shitting, changing a tampon, bfeeding, undressing, showering etc oe even just touching up my lipstick with a man next to me.

I'm not delicate but seeing men in these places does throw me. I don't really want to be peeing and shitting with a man in the next cubicle listening or smelling my shit or hearing my rip the tampon open.

we have been socialised that where females might feel vulnerable, we expect to see and be with other females - that's important to women and girls for all different reasons. Would you really not feel uncomfortable or wary if you were alone in a loo and 3 men walked in? I probably would abdvhave had creepy men staring snd invading my space before in unisex loos.

And i'd feel even mire uncomfortable in the US with the bloody great gaps round the door.

A male cleaner does not need DBS - he needs a sign saying CLOSED FOR CLEANING or perhaps MALE CLEANER PRESENT so that women who don't mind need not wait.

And it's the same for a woman who is going to clean the men's loos, although she should have the option of closing them completely, at least if there is a reasonably close alternative. And of course the cleaning should not happen immediately after the end of the working day or at shift change or any other time when the demand is high.

Years ago I was working late and having a piss in a men's loo not marked "Closed" when a female cleaner stepped out of one of the cubicles. So great is the pressure of socialisation that I apologised.

She answered very charmingly That's all right, my love, I got four at home just like you!