...to think that the childless by choice are judged harshly?

[SadlyNotNormal]

I have a step son with Asperger's, hence being on here in the first place (in case you wondered).

My question is, even if you don't think you want kids, does that change when you actually have them? Do you magically want to become a parent even if you had doubts before? I ask this most sincerely, as this is the impression my friends with children are currently giving me and I'm curious. When I say that I understand those who don't want children (because of the work involved) I usually get the stock "oh but they're worth it" response which drives me nuts, because the implication is that everyone should have children, because they're so wonderful. Now don't get me wrong, I'm strongly in favour of people having kids if they really want them and always have been. If you really want kids and you are able to, then of course have them. I don't feel as though it goes both ways though. The childless-by-choice are judged harshly (I think) by 'society' / the media as being selfish and I hate that. Surely having children is the same as anything else in life - a choice, a 'project' to pursue or not depending on your desires (if you are fortunate enough to be able to have them)?

I've known since I was 12 that I didn't want them. It's not the idea of childbirth or the sleepless nights or the dirty nappies that bothers me (I was an au pair for a while so have dealt with some pretty intense baby / toddler stuff). It's the thought of having more freedom / money / time to pursue my creative projects in my life that makes my heart soar.

Do you think that more people regret having children than is talked about?

Thanks (in advance) for letting me rant on here. It means that I won't bring it up with friends. I'm tired of hearing how wonderful it is to have children when people know full well I don't want any more (my step son is great and I'm glad to have him; he is also Enough). Would love to hear your thoughts. I hope I haven't caused any offence with my questions.

On another note, if gay genes make the females have more children, how are the doing it? Are females with gay genes more maternal?
Do the child free by choice women on this thread have any gay relatives on their maternal side?

OK I think I've cracked the Darwinian paradox.
If you are a gay man you pass the gay genes to your female relatives who have increased reproductive success on the maternal side, despite the devastating impact on the male.
If you are a non maternal women, you pass on the non gay genes through the increased reproductive success of the men in the family because they don't inherit the gay gene and have more offspring, despite the child free woman not reproducing herself.

Society judges women harshly on everything, though Oh yes everything.. We're so oppressed - it's terrible.....

Wow, just got round to reading all your replies!

I am sorry that some of you have got so upset about what I said, but here's the thing. I didn't actually 'call' childless people anything. What I described was my own joyous experience of parenthood, and I think you'll find I also said my life before parenthood was glorious too! What you have surmised from my words and chosen to take offence at says far more about your own feelings than it does about mine. It is as if, as someone said further up, you are looking to feel oppressed.

Also, forgive me if I cannot take too seriously the rantings of a group of people who are so aggressively vocal about not wanting children and yet have inexplicably joined a parenting website called Mumsnet!

Anyway, I shall hide this thread now as you'll no doubt continue ranting, cheery pip and have nice weekends!

Also, forgive me if I cannot take too seriously the rantings of a group of people who are so aggressively vocal about not wanting children and yet have inexplicably joined a parenting website called mumsnet

Right-because all the threads and topics relate to parenting, oh wait...

Can't you see how you saying children had changed your life to "the full human experience" would be pretty offensive to people without children?

We didn't all take your post that way Village.

"Mumsnet" - for parents by parents. Header of the website.

Look at the list of topics pearly. Most of them do not relate to children or parenting. Even people who don't have/want children usually have them in their lives in some way or another.

Also, forgive me if I cannot take too seriously the rantings of a group of people who are so aggressively vocal about not wanting children and yet have inexplicably joined a parenting website called Mumsnet!

I read the Guardian, which has a wide variety of people posting their opinions, from the hard Left to the hard Right. I also read the Mail. Reading a variety of opinions that aren't something you might have considered or thought of is something I regard as educating myself and broadening my mind and that's the reason I initially visited this site. I wasn't aware that MN exists in some sort of cyber-apartheid where the childfree like me dare not venture and are not welcome but clearly you'd prefer it if it was.

Mind you, you do give yourself away a bit when you describe the expression of opinions you don't like and don't agree with as 'ranting.'

What gay gene?

purple, but many of iscussions within these "non parenting" topics are deeply slanted by being a parent.

Holidays- where is a good place for toddlers, how can I entertain my 4 yo on a long haul flight

Food- mostly discussing family meals/weaning/fussy eating/ breastfeeding

Work- fitting around school holidays, where to find childcare/ unsympathetic bosses with sick children

Health and beauty- how can I get rid of my baby belly/ disguise stretch marks

Relationships- I want to leave but worried about the impact on kids/ kids not invited to my sisters wedding

Faith and religion- I don't want my kids praying in school/ my husband is of a different faith

I would suggest that a huge majority of the conversations here are impacted by parenthood.
It is a site for parents after all.

pearly you've deliberately selected thread with a parenting slant. I don't accept what you're saying at all. Feel free to ask Mnhq to clarify that this site is only for parents.

I would suggest that a huge majority of the conversations here are impacted by parenthood.
It is a site for parents after all

Yup, us childless aren't stupid, you know. We realise that from the name MUMSNET. How good are we, eh? and yet we still visit because we think we have something to offer this site and it has something from which we can benefit. Still, if it upsets people that much that oh noes, all these childless people hanging around! we can piss off and leave you to it. No skin off my nose.

I honestly don't care whether other people have children or not. But there is a huge, burgeoning industry in journalism which takes the view that the child free are being discriminated against and that women who don't want children (or who choose to have them later) are being vilified. It's easy click-bait really but I think there's very little to substantiate the idea; I don't see many articles entitled 'twenty reasons that having kids is the best thing ever and way better than being childless' whereas there are countless news pieces about all the reasons it rocks not having kids (which is fine by me as a sentiment, I just think there's a big imbalance in this area).

When pushed to cite examples (of anti-child free opinion) the pope is mentioned (yup, pretty sure his views on a range of subjects are NOT representative of the general populace!) and usually, inevitably, the parents of the child free woman in question. Your mum wanting grand kiddies does NOT mean 'society' wants you to reproduce! Unfortunately the approval or otherwise of ones parents carries disproportionate weight for most people leading to a sense that 'everyone' keeps commenting on it.

Also in answer to the OP, people saying 'ah but it's worth it' is NOT them saying you ought to do it. If someone persistently slagged off a hobby or project you loved ('oh my god rock climbing - I've heard you have to wear horrid LYCRA! And you might FALL!'/'you're a concert pianist? God I could never do all that practising/hate the sound of piano music/have wanted to anything like THAT'), then you'd occasionally feel moved to say that, actually, you rather like it yourself, it's worth the practise, Lycra etc. It doesn't mean you want everyone in the world to take up rock climbing or piano. I personally get a bit sick of conversations (mainly at work, with slightly younger colleagues who I suspect are weighing up whether or not to get sprogged up themselves) where I'm pushed into either defending parenthood (which I personally love, but why should I have to say so?!) or agreeing with them that yes, it's awful, all about sick and poo and sleepless nights. And a bit sick of articles about how the media says childless people are selfish. I genuinely don't think anyone thinks that!

Monkeymamma, there are loads of examples upthread of real life examples where childfree posters have been called selfish and heartless and made to feel guilty or odd for not having children

Rock climbing is a minority hobby. Not having a baby means that people often expect a justification and explanation from us. And it had better be worthy. It shouldn't have to be this way. It doesn't even seem to be OK, according to some posters, to broach the subject on Mumsnet.

I think what some people who see no different treatment for the childfree forget is that they are not in the position so cannot see it just as I can't speak with authority on how parents, or men or English women are treated (I'm Irish if you hadn't guessed by the username )

One of the things I find difficult is exclusion. When meeting up with a group of friends who I have known for 20 years- the conversation all centres around potty training, schools, campsites for kids for summer holidays etc. In fact it has been suggested that in future instead of the group of friends who have met up for years going out for dinner, drinks etc- we should all go to a hotel for the weekend with all husbands and children included and that should be the future pattern. That is bad enough for me but even worse for my single childfree friend. She and I have decided not to go this time.

So many social situations at our age (early 40s) are centred around the children (or the conversation is) that it's hard not to feel like a spare part at times and that unintentional social exclusion is hard.

It's a personal choice. All very well me demanding that people breed, but I won't be pacing the floor with the child when it's screaming at 2am for a feed.
I have enough of my own things going on. Without worrying about how many children people pop out.
Sadly though. There are people that judge, people who remain childless by choice, but guess what. They're probably the ones who also sing the old
. If you can't feed em don't breed em song

I've never been in a social group where everyone had children and did so at the same time. I can see that must be really difficult.

I assume there must be a class element to this though. I'm in my early forties and my kids are pretty much grown up. I only know two people with young children and that is due to fertility issues. One has grown up kids as well.

It is maybe a more contemporary problem where you can have adult friendships with people for 15-20 years and then suddenly they all have kids.

I've been a parent almost all of my adult life, and have maintained friendships with people without kids with that being the case.

It must be much harder to have a friendship for 20 years and then see people change so radically.

Thanks almond. It is hard- it's less of a class thing than the fact that we were all late actually meeting someone to have DC with.

I'm quite happy to hear about their children- they're an important part of their lives but not to the exclusion of everything else which is isolating. Hopefully as time goes on and the children get older it will be less of an issue.

It should become less of an issue because people tend to get less caught up in their kids as they grow up. It's just whether you can put up with it enmasse in the mean time.

Inviting everyone's husbands is going to totally change the dynamic as well.

Yes I agree. My single friend finds that particularly difficult. Normally when we go away for a night we share rooms etc- this leaves her on her own.

Anyway it's a slight diversion from the main topic but I guess illustrates how the childfree are not always treated the same as everyone else. Not always intentionally (although it is sometimes e g Christmas leave etc) but it can hurt.

Now lighthouseghost you know damn well thats not true Ive been on many of the same threads as you objecting to the cuts in tax credits to parents and the ridiculous useless way the Child Support system is run.

In fact here is a thread started by me a few months ago because it is not always a womans choice to have a child and a lot of women (and men) understand that. In fact i wonder if childfree women understand and research the possibility of reproductive coercion more than anyone else because its one of our biggest fears.

So many childfree women understand its not as simple as choosing to have a child.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/2601465-We-need-to-talk-about-reproductive-coercion

And even if both partners have chosen to have a child then that is their choice and up to them.

Im pro CHOICE and that is what its all about.