...to think that the childless by choice are judged harshly?

[SadlyNotNormal]

I have a step son with Asperger's, hence being on here in the first place (in case you wondered).

My question is, even if you don't think you want kids, does that change when you actually have them? Do you magically want to become a parent even if you had doubts before? I ask this most sincerely, as this is the impression my friends with children are currently giving me and I'm curious. When I say that I understand those who don't want children (because of the work involved) I usually get the stock "oh but they're worth it" response which drives me nuts, because the implication is that everyone should have children, because they're so wonderful. Now don't get me wrong, I'm strongly in favour of people having kids if they really want them and always have been. If you really want kids and you are able to, then of course have them. I don't feel as though it goes both ways though. The childless-by-choice are judged harshly (I think) by 'society' / the media as being selfish and I hate that. Surely having children is the same as anything else in life - a choice, a 'project' to pursue or not depending on your desires (if you are fortunate enough to be able to have them)?

I've known since I was 12 that I didn't want them. It's not the idea of childbirth or the sleepless nights or the dirty nappies that bothers me (I was an au pair for a while so have dealt with some pretty intense baby / toddler stuff). It's the thought of having more freedom / money / time to pursue my creative projects in my life that makes my heart soar.

Do you think that more people regret having children than is talked about?

Thanks (in advance) for letting me rant on here. It means that I won't bring it up with friends. I'm tired of hearing how wonderful it is to have children when people know full well I don't want any more (my step son is great and I'm glad to have him; he is also Enough). Would love to hear your thoughts. I hope I haven't caused any offence with my questions.

Helena, don't get me started on refusal of sterilisation!! Sorry that happened to you.

Fassone, no offence, but that's not a raise - having had one gets you out of all sorts of horrible stuff that's fired at the childfree. I agree that people are funny about only children but not at all convinced you've raised the stakes with that one.

Godstopper - yes "full human experience" is a statement of impossibility in any case. I think I've seen Village post similar before though and again with no consideration for those who might have been unable to have children. I think she enjoys the whole "I am mother, I am complete" thing.

Lurkedforever I definitely think you're onto something (I spoke to my DH about this last night and even he agrees that women are judged much more harshly when it comes to kids). However, I will say that I think the decision to have children is generally seen as the 'right' one, and those that decide not to, have to explain themselves. At least that's been my experience, and I'm not alone it would seem.

I will say though that once you've had kids, as a mother it seems (from my vantage point, watching friends who've had kids), that it is a minefield like no other. I've never known such competition and judgement. I can only assume that those who do judge and compete don't feel entirely secure with their parenting decisions. Awful. I think it's worse than ever too. I'm currently watching my best friend struggle on with BF because one 'should' but it has compromised her job (she's had to take time off because she's constantly exhausted) and when I last spoke to her she sounded drunk (she wasn't, she was just very very tired). The baby wants bottle so she's expressing to get food down her. It sounds very stressful and tiring indeed. I can't help think that if there wasn't such a bias towards BFing she would at least feel as though she had the option to use formula (even if she chose not to).

I think it's very rude to imply (as the small minority have) that to not have children is to not live life fully. I really struggle to believe that. Surely a successful athlete or successful singer (for example) could say the same, because we haven't all had the same experience? As someone who is childless by choice, I do get people confess the dark side of parenthood to me. The next day of course they'll tell me that "it's hard work but it's worth it".

Kurtsey, the Minimisers in my life are what prompted me to write this post! The implication is that we're missing out. Except it seems to me, when they are asking round everyone for babysitting favours because they so desperately need a break, that maybe we're not missing out as much as they'd like us to believe. Having said that, I totally accept that the two feelings of "I love my child / being a parent is amazing" and "dear God Jesus Christ I need a fucking break" can exist simultaneously in a parent.

StillDrSethHazlittMD, have agreed with everything you've said. Totally fine with mums saying how much they enjoy parenthood, but don't imply or say that I'm missing out for not having them. Love the sabbatical idea. As it is I'm looking at cutting my hours down at work.

Yes Helena
I have lived in fear of pregnancy all my life because the pill makes me emotionally unhinged. I have cried myself to sleep thinking I was pregnant so many times, fearing that the condom had failed or whatever, when I was just late. And I know if I were to get pregnant now I would have an abortion, so those are my options? Live in fear of what you most don't want to happen, or abortion? It's not fair at all. Why aren't women just believed? I for one am looking forward to the menopause. Perhaps then I can just bloody relax.

WriteforFun im married but if i was dating i wouldnt date a guy with kids either.

Society is still unbalanced when it comes to childcare and women are still expected to do most of it so much more of it would be expected of stepmothers than stepfathers.

fine with mums saying how much they enjoy parenthood, but don't imply or say that I'm missing out for not having them.

Exactly. Surely if you're truly happy that's enough, you shouldn't feel the need to try and make other people feel as though their life is lacking.

Oh thedogdaysareover :( I'm terrified of getting pregnant too. I have the morning after pill in my bedside cabinet drawer in case the condom splits (pill wasn't suiting me either). You can order them online from Superdrug actually, and they'll allow you to order one without having had unprotected sex. My friend (who was using condoms and then had to use the morning after pill, the morning after) ended up pregnant :o

dogdays yes i feel exactly the same My marriage is actually celibate (not because of this) so its not such a worry now . My DM was going through her menopause at 46 so i may not have long to go until mine.

HelenaDove I agree - even though step son isn't biologically mine (obvs!) I still do the majority of the childcare and arranging of activities, etc. We are part-time parents and that works well, although it does mean we have no annual leave for actual holidays!

'Writeforfun I was refused sterilisation when i asked 3 times in my late 20s

Ditto. Such bullshit

I share the contraceptive-failure angst A neighbour of ours and his girlfriend discovered that she was unexpectedly pregnant and she was already 6 months along! My blood ran cold for about a week after I heard that story. I'm on the pill and take it religiously but its still a worry

In response to a an earlier comment relating to pregnancy hormones taking over..
I can confirm that I never wanted to have children ever, no idea what to do with them and no interest in them (didn't even like dolls as a child!)
When I fell pregnant I was initially terrified and completely against the idea, but within days those pregnancy hormones had done their work.
Anyway I am happy to report that I fell immediately in love with my baby and she is still my whole world 3 years later.
When there are tantrums or I am longing to spend the day slobbing about doing my own thing and not being "mummy" I admit I do wistfully think of life as it would have been if I hadn't fallen pregnant.
I think I would have been entirely happy to live life as I was, childless and responsibility free, however I wouldn't ever go back now. (It's a cliche but she has filled a hole in my life that I never knew was there.)
In my experience, I know several couples who are childless by choice who are incredibly judgy of those who choose to have children. Criticisms of the way they are raised, too many photos of children on Facebook etc.
The judginess works both ways.

itwas, glad it worked out for you but it doesn't for everyone - some are desperately unhappy long term, the pregnancy hormones didn't help at the time and the despair just gets deeper.

lotta "A neighbour of ours and his girlfriend discovered that she was unexpectedly pregnant and she was already 6 months along!"

In my last LTR, I had a recurring nightmare of this. In the dream I was literally screaming at my doctor "how could this happen" and it was far enough along that I had to give birth. In the dream I had all these people trying to talk me into keeping it. I would wake up sweating. The reality was of course that I would have killed myself in that position. I was very lucky to be able to do Pill + condom. I had one guy tell me he thought I was mad (before we slept together) - I ended it that day. Imagine dating someone who didn't understand what a catastrophe it could be. I thought it marked him out as a horrible person tbh, which I hadn't twigged until we had that chat.

Sadly
You can order them online from Superdrug actually, and they'll allow you to order one without having had unprotected sex.

I didn't know this, thank you so much for this information!

I think whatever judgment child free people get is no worse than the child free forums filled with misogynistic and anti-child bile. I think it's perfectly reasonable for doctors to initially refuse permanent sterilization on young people with no children on the off chance that they might change their mind - they're not telepathic and don't know the future.

chihuahua " I think it's perfectly reasonable for doctors to initially refuse permanent sterilization on young people with no children on the off chance that they might change their mind - they're not telepathic and don't know the future."

how young is young?

The only women I know who have been refused sterilisation have been 30+. Refusals for women with children are common in case they want to have more. I think if we adopt the Canadian system where the sterilisation is paid for, but any future reversal is not, that would be fair. It is an awful situation for women who can't take hormonal contraception.

Plus I have yet to hear of a man having trouble getting the snip on the NHS. I know it's cheaper but I don't think that's the reason why they have less trouble!

it's also bizarre to say "you are allowed to have a child at 20 - a permanent and life changing move" - but not allow women to decide to never have one. Both are permanent and life changing and only one is seen as acceptable.

I don't have the stats to hand right now but the number of women who regret sterilisation is vanishingly low - more tellingly, I think nearly 90% of that tiny minority were women who already had children and apparently regretted being unable to have more.

chi "I think whatever judgment child free people get is no worse than the child free forums filled with misogynistic and anti-child bile."

interested in this, as I find there's much more misogyny, demonstrated by men and women, when they believe women should be mothers.

i dont judge any friends without dc at all, infact in many ways I envy them.

I think your in a great position op because you seem to understand the freedom you do have. Many of my childless friends do not understand it at all, all the things they can do we cant!

Everyone over 50 who hasn't had children ought to be given a sabbattical at work equivalent to one period of maternity leave!!

I agree!

WriteforFun, it would be a nightmare, wouldn't it?! I can't imagine how terrifying it would be to have your life swerve out of control like that

I would also love a paid sabbatical! Who do we write to about it?

Please count me in for the sabbatical too

Thank God 2016 though and child free is actually a choice people can make. I think in the past women either had children (loads of them) or became a nun. Maybe that's why there were so many more nuns in the past

I have three friends, all just over 40, who are childless. Two are only children who are very self centred. One would be a truly awful mother, she's incapable of considering other people's needs. The second would be a great mum but she's comfortable as she is. The third met her husband very late and is a sahm to dog. A shame because they would be great parents with lots to offer. But it's their choice and really nobody else's concern. I had my first at 21, people have loads to say about that as well!

Everyone over 50 who hasn't had children ought to be given a sabbattical at work equivalent to one period of maternity leave

Erm, only if you are going to look after a baby or child while you have that sabbatical... (you can look after mine if you like)

My best friend doesn't have kids. Doesn't want them. Never has.

She dotes on ours and all her friends kids, but has absolutely no desire to have her own. She used to get really annoyed when people said things like 'oh, you'll change your mind' and the fist clenching 'but your future husband will want them and you'll have them then' right through to 'you're so selfish'

These days she doesn't get so worked up about it, but over teh eyars there have been some really patronising comments.