...to think that the childless by choice are judged harshly?

[SadlyNotNormal]

I have a step son with Asperger's, hence being on here in the first place (in case you wondered).

My question is, even if you don't think you want kids, does that change when you actually have them? Do you magically want to become a parent even if you had doubts before? I ask this most sincerely, as this is the impression my friends with children are currently giving me and I'm curious. When I say that I understand those who don't want children (because of the work involved) I usually get the stock "oh but they're worth it" response which drives me nuts, because the implication is that everyone should have children, because they're so wonderful. Now don't get me wrong, I'm strongly in favour of people having kids if they really want them and always have been. If you really want kids and you are able to, then of course have them. I don't feel as though it goes both ways though. The childless-by-choice are judged harshly (I think) by 'society' / the media as being selfish and I hate that. Surely having children is the same as anything else in life - a choice, a 'project' to pursue or not depending on your desires (if you are fortunate enough to be able to have them)?

I've known since I was 12 that I didn't want them. It's not the idea of childbirth or the sleepless nights or the dirty nappies that bothers me (I was an au pair for a while so have dealt with some pretty intense baby / toddler stuff). It's the thought of having more freedom / money / time to pursue my creative projects in my life that makes my heart soar.

Do you think that more people regret having children than is talked about?

Thanks (in advance) for letting me rant on here. It means that I won't bring it up with friends. I'm tired of hearing how wonderful it is to have children when people know full well I don't want any more (my step son is great and I'm glad to have him; he is also Enough). Would love to hear your thoughts. I hope I haven't caused any offence with my questions.

Minipie - why? Did you have to look after a baby or a child during your first maternity leave?

Oops my post came out wrong! I was thinking about before the baby was born!! Never mind!

Seems like some parents may be feeling jealous of the sabbatical idea!

hahaha Auburn I was a bit confused by your first reply!

Actually I never had the bit before the baby was born (2x prem babies)

If you want to replicate the bit before the baby is born then you need to attach to yourself about 3 stone, in a huge lump at the front, digging into your ribs and bladder and waking you up in the night. And worry about an impending painful event. Then see how much fun the sabbatical is

Fair enough, Mini!
I would still like a sabbatical though...if I haven't just scuppered the whole idea!

Oh I would too believe me!

There us judgment both sides.
The child free often say the world is over populated anyway and they are doing their bit, however I don't see how that would work.
If there are genes which stop someine being maternal or paternal, surely these genes will be gone in a few generations a way if they are being deliberately selected against now people practice contraception. Therefore population size will not be affected.

I doubt it's genetic iniquity. Both my parents had children (obviously ) and all of my siblings have too. It is a carefully considered decision that people make about their lives.

iniquity "If there are genes which stop someine being maternal or paternal, surely these genes will be gone in a few generations a way if they are being deliberately selected against now people practice contraception. Therefore population size will not be affected"

um....could you explain that, I'm a bit lost?

For me it was intolerable broodiness. Maybe your siblings inherited the broody gene.

Sorry my phone is a bit naff.. If reoriductive behaviour is partly controlled by genes. Non breeding behaviour will not produce offspring. Therefore the non breeding gene becomes rare. Therefore future generations will have the breeding gene.
So if you have the non breeding gene if it exists.. Then you are already a dead end.

iniquity, I see.

so I am not doing my bit, or at least it's not enough and we do really need a 2 child policy. Yay

My ex friend has 5... She's only interested in the baby... when a new one comes... The older one gets pushed aside. He hubby has had 2 children in care for adoption. Her sister has 2 children... her hubby has 4 children in care also for adoption.
It sickens me that they only wanted their own children, and continued to have more after saying they couldnt cooe with more as an excuse to not take on DH children, and their DH have accepted that and abandoned their other genetic offspring!
It's bizarre how people think you HAVE to have children. I have a few friends who have never been interested in having children, it's their life, why should they!

Writefor - young would be early 20s ish I guess? I just don't think a surgeon should sterilise anyone unless they personally are convinced it is the right thing to do. Maybe those stats are so low because the surgeons aren't just snipping anyone over 18 who asks for it on a whim?

Can't take HBC? Me either, DH is wearing johnnies until we're 100% on whether we want a DC3. Or you could give the copper IUD a shot. It's not the snip or nothing.

As for the misogyny, google child free forum and read about entitlemoos, breeders, how unfair mat leave is, child cried in a shop, blah blah blah. Yes it's misogynistic to say "you should be a mum, that's what women do", but vilifying mothers is disgusting too.

Chick, if an early 20s lady told her GP she's pregnant' would you expect the gp to go through checks to be sure sge wants to have it? Because it should work both ways. Having a child is not a reversible choice.

Chick i googled The Childfree Life after seeing it mentioned elsewhere. I thought it was awful and was only on the site for about sixty seconds to see that. Why the fuck do you think im on this site.

Im childfree by choice and i have NEVER insulted mothers It is possible to be childfree and a feminist you know.

When the cuts to tax credits were announced some of the objectors to it on here (including me) were very vocal about what we thought. Ive signed pettitions against a lot of the cuts affecting parents and children.

No one asks to be sterilised willy nilly How belittling and patronising

Having children is the full human experience, and yes its tiring and hard work and a huge responsibility, and its also the most joyous, exhilarating, overwhelming, beautiful thing you will ever feel

Have you actually not read the actual thread, TheVillagePost?

As I've said before, it always strikes me that people who bang on about the experience of parenting as you do, must have led very boring thin emotionally immature lives before reproducing.

Some of us don't need to depend on producing another human in order to lead emotionally full lives.

I won't say anything else as it seems to be quite emotive and people without children seem to be getting quite cross about it

And there we have it.

I think once you have children then unless you have some sort of personality disorder then you love them, and if you love someone and are responsible for them then it is hard to wish that they didn't exist. In the other hand, it is very clear how your quality of life is different with kids and how much harder it is. For some people this is fine - they love all the kid stuff and does miss the child free stuff that much so are happy. But for some people, the child-based life style is a constant and exhausting slog. Those people may not say or even feel that they wish they children had never been born but are aware that they are living a life which is not what they want.

Personally, I really wanted children and am really glad I have them, and love many aspects of my life. But I had the drudgery and relentlessness of it and often look at my child free friends with envy. I would always advise people not to have children unless they really want them.

Sorry - 'does miss' = 'don't miss', 'had the drudgery' = 'hate the drudgery'

Someone asked a question of the childfree men earlier and it went unanswered (because I've been off site since yesterday afternoon) about vasectomies.

No, I haven't had a vasectomy. I did consider having one many years ago but my uncle (married with two children) had one done and unfortunately he is in the percentage that have had extreme pain ever since and it's completely wrecked his life - constant pain, marriage split up because of lack of sex. Having done much more research since, the risks and potential problems seem to be minimised greatly by the medical profession and I know there is a poster on MN who speaks very eloquently on the subject whenever it comes up.

As a result, while I do realise the majority don't have long-term problems, having seen it at relatively close hand, it's not a risk I am prepared to take. For the same reason, if a female partner said they didn't want to get sterilised, I'd be fully behind their choice. I'd be quite happy to take the male pill if they can finally sort it before I'm too old to use my equipment!

With both my long term partners they have been on the pill but we always used condoms as well.

when in fact we might already have lot of responsibilities, and have thought very carefully about whether or not to have children

Yes that's me. I have a job where I'm very responsible.

I went through the baby hunger but I seem to be irredeemably single sign on my back saying 'unloveable' I suspect I did think very very hard about having a child on my own. I would have been completely on my own with that, in terms of family support (hah!).

I made a deeply ethical decision not to have a child simply to salve my own emotional needs. I was the daughter of emotionally-needy parents, and although I had a wonderful childhood in some respects, that emotional neediness has left its mark on me (viz. the unlovability) and I didn't think it was fair or ethical to repeat the process.

Having a child is not a selfless thing. Quite the reverse.

I'm another one that has been repeatedly refused sterilisation since my early 30s. I asked for it as the GP refused to re-prescribe me the combined pill and the minipill doesn't agree with me (which rules out the implant and the injection). For the last 12 years we've used condoms only, bloody terrifies me. Every time I've brought it up since then they push the sodding Mirena at me. Now I'm in my mid 40s with shocking periods and they still refuse.

I've never asked DP to have a vasectomy and never will as I see it as my responsibility given I had made the choice several years before we met. He knew that up front but I've never wanted to take his choice away should anything happen to our relationship.

Patrician - ridiculous, isn't it? As other posters have pointed out, if you got pregnant in your early 30s (or probably early 20s for that matter), no one would blink an eye. Having a baby is just as irreversible as sterilisation, but its the 'normal' choice so its all fine