...to think that the childless by choice are judged harshly?

[SadlyNotNormal]

I have a step son with Asperger's, hence being on here in the first place (in case you wondered).

My question is, even if you don't think you want kids, does that change when you actually have them? Do you magically want to become a parent even if you had doubts before? I ask this most sincerely, as this is the impression my friends with children are currently giving me and I'm curious. When I say that I understand those who don't want children (because of the work involved) I usually get the stock "oh but they're worth it" response which drives me nuts, because the implication is that everyone should have children, because they're so wonderful. Now don't get me wrong, I'm strongly in favour of people having kids if they really want them and always have been. If you really want kids and you are able to, then of course have them. I don't feel as though it goes both ways though. The childless-by-choice are judged harshly (I think) by 'society' / the media as being selfish and I hate that. Surely having children is the same as anything else in life - a choice, a 'project' to pursue or not depending on your desires (if you are fortunate enough to be able to have them)?

I've known since I was 12 that I didn't want them. It's not the idea of childbirth or the sleepless nights or the dirty nappies that bothers me (I was an au pair for a while so have dealt with some pretty intense baby / toddler stuff). It's the thought of having more freedom / money / time to pursue my creative projects in my life that makes my heart soar.

Do you think that more people regret having children than is talked about?

Thanks (in advance) for letting me rant on here. It means that I won't bring it up with friends. I'm tired of hearing how wonderful it is to have children when people know full well I don't want any more (my step son is great and I'm glad to have him; he is also Enough). Would love to hear your thoughts. I hope I haven't caused any offence with my questions.

I don't think of childless people as being a 'group' of people with something in common.

Parents are a group in that they all do something the same - bringing up children. Hence MN has many threads about raising kids (as well as many general topics).

But I don't think, oh, here comes X who is childless. I think here comes X, who is my sister's friend, or who plays the guitar lessons whatever. I don't think of childlessness as an important thing about someone, just as Inwouldn't judge someone for not having a brother, or for not wearing a hat.

There's no league table of love

I just wanted to come back on to applaud this stated by a previous poster. Some awful comments on here.

I might say to Village you'll never have the true human experience because you don't have a daughter or twins or multiple siblings. How would you feel about that?

Village was last seen heading off to enjoy her 'full human experience' by playing in the paddling pool with her baby, having upset a lot of people on here and sounding very pleased about it. So that's lovely

I'm wondering whether there are enough of us and enough to talk about to have a permanent "childfree/childless" thread on MN, just as there is the dating thread, the sweary thread, the dry thread etc? Bit of solidarity and somewhere to discuss things that affect the childfree/childless without resorting to the level of The Childfree Life style chat? Who knows, some parents might even find it helpful to see gain an insight into some of the issues we find and perhaps we can create better empathy where there is hostility?

I think that's a great idea StillDrSeth and would be well up for joining

I'd be really interested in that. We're currently what is apparently termed as 'on the fence' (haven't made a decision either way) and would like to discuss the child free element more because everyone near us has kids.

OK, well if a good few people think it's a sensible idea, I'll start a thread in Chat (so it disappears after 90 days or whatever it is) but come here once I've done it.

Playing I guess it could be useful for fence dwellers!

Yes, I think it's a sensible idea. I appreciate the honesty and empathy of the parents who have posted on this thread (but not the smugness of the one who sees the childfree as an easy target).

No I don't. Not here in the UK anyway. I suppose though as we are a sexually reproducing species some people might wonder why? But judged harshly ? I've never been old that by any of the childless couples I know .

Perhaps though you're searching for a place for yourself in the oppression sweepstakes?

Olivia A shame that you presumably didn't read the full thread where loads of us gave plenty of examples and were even treated harshly on this same thread by MNetters who are parents? They proved our point conclusively.

Oh, cross point. You're another one of the parents I just referred to, clearly.

Yes, I do think society judges people (especially women) for not having children. Its absolute bollocks - of course you shouldn't have kids if you don't want them and its not selfish at all to make that choice. My sister doesn't want children and as she approaches her late 30s, its all anyone ever asks her about. She has to grit her teeth a lot.

Society judges women harshly on everything, though, in my opinion. I don't regret having my children - they're people now and I love them dearly - but if I had known how hard it would be (compounded by the fact one of my children has autism and serious behavioural issues), I possibly would have made a different decision...and if I'd have know how having kids was going to fuck my career for pretty much a decade, I definitely would have left it a bit later than my mid twenties to start (in direct opposition to what all the fertility scare mongerers tell us worn to do!).

Meant to say - its pretty much taboo to say you have some regrets about having your children and when ever I touch on the subject with other women, I'm usually met with uncomfortable silences and then a falsely cheery 'yeah, but we wouldn't have it any other way would we?'

Adora - I also think women are judged harshly and it ends up being divisive. And contradictory - even earlier, on this thread, childfree people were called carefree and irresponsible while also having a grey and boring life

Seth it was me who asked about vasectomy. I too have seen the posts from the MNer you mean and you gave another example and i dont blame you for refusing.

Re. the Pill though.........contraception choices for women over 40 are bloody dire.

I did look into this. I lost a lot of weight (i used to be obese) and i went on the Depo in my early 30s. was ok on it

Years later i was given one choice.....the Mini Pill I was losing weight again but it was coming off slower this time ....on the Mini Pill i started to gain even though i stuck to the diet plan i was on. So i came off it and five pounds just dropped off .

The nurse at the Family Planning clinic told me that at my age and the history with my weight she would not recommend the Depo Now i was ok on the Depo 10 years + ago but as it has been harder to get 4 stone off this time than it was 10 stone off the first time i would not risk it. You can just stop taking a Pill if it doesnt agree with you but you cant do that when you have been injected with it. So i have made the choice never to take hormonal contraception again. It has taken three years to lose the 4 stone regain of the 10 stone i originally lost and quite frankly ive worked too damn hard to potentially have synthetic hormones fuck it up.

I didn't want children at all. I really really didn't. As for why? I don't know quite honestly. I suppose I wanted freedom, independence and not to have a little person relying solely on me. I mean that's a daunting thought!
However I ended up pregnant and yes, I love him to absolute pieces. But I do long for my old life. He's a great laugh though but I am not intending to ever have another one

Society judges women harshly on everything, though

Hear hear. It basically boils down to that.

I was enjoying the 'full human experience' earlier, listening to the non-stop arguing from the back of my car while I took my 9yo son to judo.

I don't think I'll have had the full human experience until I bed Chris Hemsworth.

I think the thread in Chat is a great idea.

If there are genes which stop someine being maternal or paternal, surely these genes will be gone in a few generations a way if they are being deliberately selected against now people practice contraception. Therefore population size will not be affected"

Ah, now this is interesting. It doesn't necessarily work like that ( a geneticist , hear me out.) There's a thing called alloparenting in some species. Basically the breeding pair are assisted by non breeding females. So say youve got two types of birds. There's enough food for only a limited number of offspring. Type 1 all try to breed - they're competing against each other. Type two only have one breeding pair and their aunties help out with childcare and food. In a limited resource environment type two wins - their offspring are more likely to survive, breed and pass their genes on.
What's in it for the aunts? Why doesn't the gene for helping (there isn't one but let's simplify) die out? Well the aunts are sufficiently genetically related to the parents that it's sort of like passing their own genes on, if you can't have your own bio fledglings, better to have your siblings chicks survive than unrelated ones.

Even more interestingly, this mechanism is thought to explain why the prevelance of homosexuality is so high (in most mammals and birds) - there seems to be a sibling advantage in that the siblings of gay family members have more offspring. Thus the genes prevail.

So anyway, it's by no means biologically unnatural to have a proportion of the population who don't have a strong breeding urge. Nor is it biologically unnatural to be gay.

I have DC now, but didn't think I'd be able to have them after lots of chemo in my late teens. I married young and was a step mother to 4 children ranging from 1 to early teens. After the initial shock of realising that I'd had the choice of whether or not to have children taken away, I was cool with the idea.

In the years before my children were born I certainly lived a good life, but it was not an irresponsible life full of partying and decadence. It was a normal adult life filled with responsibility and hard work, interspersed with fun and frivolity. Kind of like my life now I have children.

I did not suddenly find meaning to my life on giving birth and my life still isn't technicolor apart from that weekend at Glasto 25 years ago. I love my children, but have had no revelations about ultimate love or whatever bollocks is spouted about parental love - I love my girls, I love my husband, I love my dogs. There's little to choose between them to be brutally honest.

I'm glad I had the children, but if I hadn't, then I would have been perfectly happy without them. My life is fulfilled because of how I choose to live it. I am not an earth mother, but not a bad one either - though my youngest does refer to herself as my youngest puppy.....

Skiptonlass, I've heard the gay gene theory as well, but I'm not convinced the sibling advantage could be sufficient enough to explain the increasing gay man population size, when the carrier of the gay gene has significantly less children than a hetero man, and if the sibling's children express the gay gene then there would be few grandchildren.
Bisexuality is seen in animals I believe but it not common to see completely gay male animals. I can't honestly can't see how that could lead to a reproductive advantage.