AIBU to think Katie Hopkins is even more of a tw--a--it...

[GigiB]

.. she really is. Check out this headline:

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3627352/KATIE-HOPKINS-Welcome-Midsummer-madness-Ramadan.html

who wants to help me plot how to get her put in a box and posted to the north pole with no ski's?

Currently Augusta or overall?

Where's the stat from?

Ego, the problems are coming from within Islam. These people don't just jump out of the ether fully formed with no background.

Apart from anything else it's extremely unlikely the man who did this was brought up with liberal tolerant values in his attitudes towards LGBT people.

Earlier today when it wasn't clear what had happened a lot of people were posting on MN assuming that it was a right wing nut and getting very angry about hatred and intolerance towards gay people from the right wing. Turns out it's a Muslim and suddenly nobody's bothered about intolerance from one group towards LGBT people anymore because this group gets a free pass.

This is a problem. And apparently because not all Muslims share unpleasant attitudes we can't discuss the fact that quite a few do. Some Muslims hate gay people because they believe their religion says it's okay, some treat women like crap because they believe their religion says it's okay, some view non-believers as inferior because they believe their religion says it's okay. Yet we're not supposed to say this or discuss this because some don't and it upsets them.

This is just nonsense. Western attitudes have changed a lot in the last 100 years. All of the things I suggested above were mainstream, acceptable ideas in British society pre-1900 and now they're not. Mainly because of societal pressure and a general sea change in attitudes.

I'd like to see those attitudes challenged in all sections of society rather than some having a free pass because it might upset them and they might kick off. A movement of middle aged white men who declared women weren't equal, belonged in the home, shouldn't have equal inheritance rights or the freedom of men and had to wear a particular set of clothes; who said gays were sinners who would burn in hell and had no place in society and should not be accepted; who said non-Christians were inferior and shouldn't be associated with and certainly not married (particularly to their daughters) - they'd be in prison for hate speech within a nano second. Nobody would be wringing their hands saying we should turn a blind eye because not all middle aged white men were members and the rest of them might be upset and feel 'othered' by being told their attitudes were unacceptable. Yet when we know that at the very least a sizeable majority of one religion holds these views and even worse is acting violently to express their hatred we're all just supposed to look the other way and pretend it's not happening?

It's not really working anyway is it? That's been the mainstream Western approach for at least the last 15 years and things are getting worse, not better.

I notice you haven't replied to my comments about Ramadan. Do you think Ramadan causes an increase in violence or do you just think that the level of terrorism is at its 'normal' level?

Actually, I think you'll find I posed that question first on this thread and nobody responded. I think there is a spike, yes. Most western governments and news organisations seem to agree as far as I can see too.

I'm not sure of the exact cause, but I believe the pronouncements from some mullahs that you get extra Jihadi points and a BOGOF deal on virgins in heaven and will be extra holy if you attack during Ramadan probably don't help.

If you think it is caused by Ramadan, what do you want doing then? Banning Muslims from practising this part of their religion because it might make an extremely small minority of people more violent?

Nope. I'm generally very pro freedom of religion which is why I'm not really mad keen on those rampaging around the world insisting people adopt their religion or be killed/treated as subhuman. But I would like to stop pretending it's not happening and confront the fact that, yes, these attacks are committed by Muslims and yes, they do have an awful lot to do with Islam and face up to the fact that something really needs to change. Probably something to do with the fact that we need to insist on (as a poster said above) the values of a modern secular democracy being the dominant ones in our society and not simply letting some groups drop out of these because of their religious convictions.

And I don't really care whether that's to do with abortion laws in Northern Ireland or Cotswold hoteliers who don't want gay couples staying or hate preaching in mosques and Islamic schools.

That's interesting Ego, Muslims have historically been more accepting towards Trans people and they have had a role within Muslim society for quite some time. Often it's seen as preferable to being gay. An example being Iran where being gay is punishable by anything from lashes to the death penalty - but gender reassignment surgery is endorsed and paid for by the government.

I wonder if you would have had such support if you had come out as gay? I seriously doubt it. Seems a bit of an 'I'm alright Jack' attitude to me.

Ok - and in our secular democracy, what practices are going on because 'we've allowed groups to drop out of these values'?

Erm, all the bombings and shootings and shit? Did you not notice 50 people getting murdered last night?

And FGM (laws not enforced), Islamic schools preaching hate and discriminating against girls, self segregation and voluntary ghettoisation. Grooming rings flourishing for decades because the authorities were too scared to challenge Muslims and viewed it as racist to object to the crimes. Ahmadiyaah regularly being the victims of hate crime, online abuse, threats....I could go on.

How many Muslims do you think were killed in the American backed Indonesian invasion of East Timor, BillSykesDog?

Was that about 'the values of a modern secular society'?

Here is a good Chomsky quote for you;

" Everyone’s worried about stopping terrorism. Well, there’s really an easy way: Stop participating in it."

I think the US religious right are more accepting of LGB than T.

Where is everyone suddenly getting the idea that FGM is an Islamic practice? It isn't.

What non Muslim cultures practice it? From what I can see whilst not all Muslims practice FGM, all those who have undergone FGM are Muslim.

Happy to be corrected.

I am pretty certain we have not turned a blind eye to terrorism.

I think we turn an awful lot of a blind eye to the surrounding circumstances which lead up to radicalisation and ultimate attacks. If you're talking about 'we' as in our laws here: I think the current government does some good work around this and also has a pretty sensible immigration policy at the moment which is minimising the risk here well.

I think perhaps the 'we' who are turning a blind eye are sections of society which tend towards the left in general and the regressive left in particular who are just in complete denial about the problems here and overseas and are determined to see Islam as an almost universal fluffy entity with a few anomalies.

I view that as deeply, deeply wrong. Looking at Muslim societies around the world they pretty much universally (perhaps with the exception of Turkey, but even that's debatable) operate repressive discriminatory pretty bloody nasty regimes where it's not very nice to be a woman, gay, not a Muslim, etc.

Terrorists like the one last night, the Bataclan; people like Jihadi John - they don't just jump fully formed and radicalised from the ether. Something happens to make them that way.

And the 'tiny minority' schtick is getting a bit wearing. This is not the odd madman like David Coupland. This isn't a few twats turning up to an EDL march. We're at the point now where entire Islamist states are being set up and existing states are morphing into Islamist ones.

I think, if we were looking at a comparable thing with the far right, you'd be talking Germany being taken over by a Nazi coup, and places like Italy, Austria, Spain, Greece installing facist governments. And regular guerilla attacks of violence against people who weren't members of the dominant group.

But of course that's no cause for concern because it could never happen right? Oh. It did. Didn't work out that well did it?

You did notice that bit where I faced a lot of hassle from Christian parents. The religious right in the USA is not exactly welcoming of LGBT people

No, but you're prepared to ignore Muslim homophobia because they're accepting of the 'T' bit aren't you?

Can you please point to anywhere where you think I have ignored the homophobic beliefs of some extremists?

Because you're prepared to point to your own good experience as coming out as Trans (something much more widely accepted within Muslim culture) as an example of apparent Muslim tolerance whilst ignoring the fact that it's widely known that they LGB bits of LGBT face huge Muslim intolerance going right up to legalised state sponsored murder.

The counties that have the death penalty for being gay are Iran, Mauritania, Saudi Arabia, Sudan and Yemen. Please can you tell me which one of these is Christian?

Afghanistan, Brunei, Mauritania, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Sudan, the United Arab Emirates, and Yemen have capital punishment for changing your religion. Again, which of these is Christian?

But then, of course, that wouldn't fit in with your agenda of denial would it?

You are a prime example of what I'm talking about. You're wringing your hands in anguish over 'othering' by people who want to discuss the fact that Islam seems to have quite a bit of a problem dealing with people who are gay, women or not Muslims. But if it's pointed out to you that quite a lot of Muslims are quite capable and actually rather enthusiastic about doing their own bit of othering up to and including state sanctioned murder for being a bit different and suddenly your head goes straight in the sand and we can't talk about it because it might upset somebody. So no anguish about othering when it involves getting your head chopped off for being a bit to 'otherish' eh?

Why's that? Well I would hazard a guess that as I said earlier, you are one of these people who had developed your own special pass for Muslims when it comes to hatred, violence and 'othering' because you've decided that they're a group with special privileges who get all the tolerance and understanding they like chucked their way without a single iota of expectation they should extend the same in return.

Come on, why don't you care about the 'othering' that went on in Pulse, or the Bataclan, or 'Chop Chop' Square in SA or Kabul or towards the Ahmadiyaah whose persecution is written in the Pakistani constitution FFS? Or the Yazidi and Christians in Syria being persecuted? Or the Christians in Nigeria, Egypt, Iraq, Eritrea, Pakistan, Somalia, Sudan, Iran, Libya?

It's estimated that 80% of acts of religious persecution worldwide are aimed at Christians (the lions share done by Muslims) despite them only making up 33% of the world's population.

Why aren't you bothered about that sort of othering? Because it's being done by people you have decided get a free pass?

Is Kosher meat being foisted on our children in state schools and who says I have no problem with that - you ? I believe Sharia law's influence is growing here in the UK yes, as it is in continental Europe. BTW this is for the other apologist of intolerance and hatred who claims this hasn't happened.
The facts are there, plain and evident. And yes, I'm bloody terrified of it ok?? In fact to all apologists of Islamic terror including Western politicians and all the half-witted, lefty, Guardian journalists who doubtlessly this weekend couldn't get to their keyboards quick enough to tell us 'this has nothing to do with Islam' and it's all D. Trump and Katie Hopkins' fault for speaking out about the fears the overwhelming majority here in the West are feeling. Yes I do fear Islam - OK. On behalf of myself a mother of 2 girls and my gay friends, I'm fucking horrified by it. I also don't give a shit if that offends you. You may well feel that women wearing blankets over their heads, being their husbands property, having no voice/identity in public life and gay men being thrown off of roofs to their deaths, may be perfectly acceptable? Personally, and I don't think I'm alone here, but I'm a bit less comfortable about that kind of thing. If human rights means anything in this world then I hope the Islamic world is forced to pay compensation to the girls/women/men and boys who's lives it is systematically destroying at home and abroad, and is shamed about what its advocates are doing to innocent people whose lives it disproves of. Just as the catholic church is doing to those it abused and whose lives they ruined.

The reason they are not bothered Bill is, because for those who belong to the social justice cult. Everything is determined by a particular groups position in the oppression sweepstakes. If a certain group is counted as oppressed or marginalised then it automatically, in social justice discourse, gains in status over the supposedly more dominant group. Muslims are defined as a marginalised group which is a very western-centric view of things anyway and ironic, as there are some very powerful Muslim ruled states in the ME and beyond. But Muslims are seen as marginalised by the self loathing lefties here in the West, as they are a minority in western countries. Because of that it is very politically incorrect to speak the truth about how Islamic values are incompatible with liberal Western societies. Anyone who does is a racist an Islamophobe, or a hate monger. Barrack Obama couldn't even bring himself to call this latest outrage in Orlando an act of Islamic terrorism. He called it 'a tragic incident'. An 'act of hate / terror' yes, but was very careful not to mention the obvious religious motivation of the cowardly freak who carried it out.

FGM is practiced by some Christians and animists in SS Africa as well, I believe.

It predates Islam. However, I think the hadiths (not the Koran) speak approvingly of the practice.

Transgenderism is actually kinda pushed in some majority Muslim countries (like Iran) because it is a way of "normalizing/disappearing" gay people. It's illegal to be gay in Iran. So you transition instead. Iran has the highest rate of gender assignment surgery in the world, I have heard.

Interesting 'New I didn't know that.

Also had to reread your post twice as I animists as animals initially and was a touch confused

Agree that transgenderism is being used to erase gay men and women in certain countries, your example of Iran illustrates that well.