...to be considering leaving?

[shinyredbookcase]

On paper, I have the perfect life. I have a well paid job I love with flexible (but long hours). I have healthy, happy children and a nice house in a nice area. DH is a stay at home dad and he's really good at it, very committed and involved with the children, has great relationships with each of them and additionally he is very practically supportive of me. I have friends and get out to see them once or twice per month.

DH hasn't touched or spoken to me - other than practical things to do with the kids, without making eye contact - for twelve days. We've not had sex for a month, and we rarely have sex more than once per month. I can't remember the last time we spent time together alone: once the kids are in bed he says he needs time alone and spends time on his computer or out running. I've checked his phone and computer (there are no passwords) and there's no porn, weird emails etc. He is a bit less tech savvy than me but more than capable of a secret phone / private browsing etc. Though I just don't see it in his character.

I've tried to speak to him about the coldness and distance in our relationship and his lack of interest in any kind of emotional or physical contact with me many times. His parents are the same and but he knows I don't consider this normal and that I am unhappy. He knows the very specific things he does that make me feel unwanted and unhappy. He's asked me to initiate sex and tell him I want to spend time together in the evenings, but when I do he consistently turns me down - he's either tired, needs time alone, had planned to watch something on the television, etc etc etc.

I've been blunt with him - he says he isn't gay and he doesn't masturbate. There's no health problems that I know of - he eats well, is physically fit. I am of average appearance but no different to when we met. A tiny bit heavier but of medium build and good personal hygiene. I shower before bed.

I understand a SAHP needs time alone to recharge and can get 'touched out' but our kids at school age and the youngest is just finishing Year One so for the past two years he's been alone 9-3.15 every day. He does the bulk of the housework but I clean bathrooms, do ironing and cooking at weekends and share the school drop offs.

I'm not sure where to go from here. I've asked him if he wants to split up and he says the children need him, he is planning a professional IT course to get him back into work now the kids are all at school, and that I'm asking too much. I can't imagine the rest of my life like this.

Totally random idea but i had a friend who did something similar with their partner to bring them closer together as i think part of the insecurity came from not having much money to do things as he was the breadwinner. He gave her £100 a week to spend on activities they would do together, which had to be spent each week.

It quickly enlivened their sex/married life due to her coming up with loads of creative ideas to spend the money on things they would enjoy, it was almost like her part time job!

user I've been considering it through all of this thread. It's why I am still living with him, to be blunt. Did you read the thread?

TrueBlue I like that idea. Finances between us are a sticky point though so I am not sure it would work. I take care of it all, because he doesn't want to - and we each get a regular amount of fun money. When his runs out he asks me for more, and sulks when there is no more because I am his bad mummy. I offered to turn all the finances over to him for him to run as he saw fit, thinking that if he was the one paying all the bills, he'd understand it wasn't me saying 'no' it was just the facts of life - the fun money budget is not infinite. But he refused to.

shiny, you've clearly tried so hard for such a long time. People shouldn't treat other people the way your H is treating you.

It does sound me like it's all about working out the least damaging exit strategy now, particularly in relation to the child living arrangements. I think it's time for the solicitor's office rather than the counsellor's office, to be frank.

Emotional intimacy, affection and sex are a massive integral part of a relationship for me. Without it you got some kind of parenting co-op. Five years is a long time for someone not to change and in fact for things to deteriorate shows a pretty bad pattern. I would leave. It's going to be more and more harmful for your own well-being. He seen you beg, plead, cry and threaten to leave and it made no difference. He may see it as you bluffing; he can ignore and carry on in some parallel cohabitation. I would stop wondering about his motives and the reason why he is so emotionally absent and work out practical solutions to separate and have joined custody. I am guessing as an outsider but to me it sounds like your DH is using sex/intimacy as a weapon and power trip. He literally got you begging for it. To me it sounds like he resents your lifestyle, not just that you work and have a good career but that you are passionate about what you do. He comes across like a big black hole that sucks up all your joie de vivre eventually. It's time to stop begging to be loved and start a massive love affair with yourself. That constant rejection is gonna take its toll and is a form of very insidious abuse by manipulative people. You don't have to be mean and can try to be fair with arrangements but the fact that he didn't wanna work part time at the time speaks volumes. Some SAHP I've encountered do seem to expect special recognition for doing exactly what many women do without the constant pat on the back. I understand some of the issues but had enough of the sulking and passive-aggression. I was lucky that my DP and I both work self-employed and could share childcare. He did have a 'moment' early on when he made a big show about doing exactly the same parenting tasks I would on my days. I made him a huge shiny medal and he got the point and we laughed about it after :D

shiny I'm very pleased you feel better, and you're quite right, you cannot continue to suggest things if this is one of his objections.

I don't suppose either of you are religious or are church goers? If you were would you consider speaking to your priest yourself?

Until January is completely doable. Did you say he objects when you've told him you want to split? How does he word this objection? I don't get the impression he makes promises to change...

Of course he refused. Cos he needs to be able to blame you for everything. If he had control of the money he couldn't blame you for refusing it.

I also suspect that if you responded to his "tantrum" remark as you suggested, he'd have turned on his heel and left the room before you were halfway through the first sentence. You need something snappier. A verbal bullet. Or an indifferent shrug. Or just staring at him blankly. After all, he is not bothering to hide his contempt, so why are you? If the kids aren't around, then just allow yourself to occasionally be rude. It's not as if you have anything to lose. It's not as if he'll be nicer if you just explain yourself properly.

Do you have a spare room? If so, I would move into it. It seems a farce to be sharing the same bed when he is being so nasty and you are doing The Grey Rock technique (Google it).

OP it sounds like you are doing absolutely the best job to sort this out that you possibly can, but unless your DH wants to play ball then it's not going to work.

When he does his course, what sort of hours will it be? Will the DCs need afterschool/wraparound care then? How long is the course?

I'm just wondering if it's worth sticking it out until he's in paid employment again as that way he'd no longer be considered the primary carer.

I recognise so much of my life on this thread!

So many of the strategies I recognise from my exP - in particular the way that conversations that I want to have about "I am not happy, are you? What do you want? What can we do?" always turn into a tirade of criticisms of me - not in a constructive "if you want change, change this" way, but more "shut up, you aren't even allowed to talk to me because you are crap and I refuse to have this conversation, here is an example of your crapness to show why you aren't allowed to talk" way.

Also the way that despite doing most of the serious practical stuff that makes this family work, I am constantly portrayed as being some kind of unstable, irrational child.

Also the refusal to deal with money, but wanting to spend it without understanding where it comes from and / or how much of it there is.

also a generalised resentment that life is not more fun, but not taking part in planning anything fun to do with me.

Physical and emotional and social coldness. Me coming into the house and not even getting a hello, or him looking up.

In our case, it's different because he was the one who finally decided to leave. I was having a completely crap time and accepted it because I thought it was my duty to hang on until some unspecified time when I could "get him back" and have a decent relationship again - when the children were older, when my work calmed down a bit - something like that. I thought maybe somehow we could get some help and start to communicate again. I don't know how long I would have stuck it out but he has decided to leave, and I am glad to have this agonising confusion ended, really. I am single and that's something I at least understand, as opposed to "why if I am supposedly in a relationship am I so lonely and feel so shit about myself?"

my ex was a SAHD for about 9 months a few years ago, but since then worked locally (I commute) and did more early evening childcare than me and more school runs. He deeply, deeply resents that. Subconsciously he feels that something is badly wrong when he has a woman and yet so much menial child-related labour and so little freedom. He thinks I am bad and lazy, although I both earn more than him and do more in the house, because the fact that he has any constraints on his leisure at all is, for him, a profound disruption in the way things are supposed to me. He has no respect for me at all.

I wonder if you would find out something similar about your husband?

I thought that very gentle and skilful relationship counselling might one day help my ex to see my point of view; see that he doesn't just automatically deserve a female as a personal domestic servant; and respect what I do do for him and for us. I knew I couldn't make him see that myself, because my attempts make him too angry. But actually I am pretty sure that he'll never face any of this.

Dont know if this will ring any bells with you or be totally wrong, but all I could think of was
"The Water Torturer–He proves that anger doesn’t cause abuse. He can assault his partner psychologically without even raising his voice. He tends to stay calm in arguments, using his own evenness as a weapon to push you over the edge. In an argument you are the one who leaves the room crying, or yelling, and then he can accuse YOU of being the one with a problem."

If he accuses you of something, and you contradict him, however politely, that will set him off. It might be better to develop and practice some neutral responses, like "I'm sorry you feel that way." Or "I hear what you've said." Acknowledge what he's saying but don't engage.

Re-read this thread, as realised I missed some pages and more of the OP's subsequent posts. Your DH rings so many alarm bells, as a classic emotionally abusive man. Before my current partner, I had a long term relationship with someone who could be closely related to your DH. These kind of abusive guys all follow such a similar pattern. I have ticked off so many virtually identical mannerisms and my advice is - get out as soon as you possibly can. Never mind his fucking course! Please safeguard your and your children's mental well-being. He will realise that he is losing control and he will step up his abusive behaviour to gain the upper hand. He is so classic in his insidious abuse! Bet everyone thinks how wonderful he is, a doting husband and loving father. This type never shows their true colours to anyone but you. And he works mainly with confusing you, constantly shifting the goal posts. As he hasn't got the money or other things to assert power, he uses sex, intimacy and social interaction to blackmail and undermine you. Because he seems so nice and doesn't use violence or probably even raises his voice, you are left reeling and desperate to work out what is wrong. He'll always make you think you did something wrong. Things be fine if you did xyz... In fact, he will skewer the whole situation so you will look unstable as he makes sly digs. Oh petal, I really feel for you! I've been there and it took me such a long time to realise it wasn't my fault and I was actually being abused. Then it all suddenly clicked into place. In my case, my ex was not successful as an artist and got rejected by the art schools that took me on. He did 'accidentally' destroy a lot of my creative output. My only luck is that we never had children. Please check out this book. There are different types of abuse but it does cover the non-violent types too

www.ecok.edu/sites/default/files/siteContent/administration/centers-programs/brandon-whitten-institute/Why%20Does%20He%20Do%20That.pdf

PS: That link above is a bit over- simplified I just realised but the author published a very good in-depth book called 'Why does he do that, Inside the Minds of Angry and Controlling Men' by Lundy Bancroft. You will find your DH among the different types.

Op when I was a SAHP I felt a bit of a non person, and whilst I was married to a good and hard working man I felt beholden to him for everything and (quite wrongly) I felt I had no right to have any say/opinion/make a decision on anything financial family related. DH never said I couldn't or shouldn't but it was just something in me

Doesn't give the OP's husband the right to be so angry, cruel, and emotionally abusive towards her.

Like another poster upthread, I'm angry for you OP. This is now way to live - I'm almost in tears reading your account of your daily life. It's awful.

Could you see a solicitor just to find out how much you would 'lose' by leaving - it might not be as much as you think ...

That's a really good post Retrolmp.

I hadn't made the connection, but I think you're right. As the H doesn't have the traditional methods of control i.e. earning more money, not doing housework etc. he is using the most powerful weapon at his disposal - intimacy of any kind.

Only really read the op's posts and I feel for you and your kids, as they must be picking up on the atmosphere, no matter how hard you're trying to be normal.

I know you have said you have ranted, screamed, begged your husband previously, but have you tried just sitting him down and saying something like - I'm tired of living like this, I don't think either of us are happy and we should think aboug looking at seperating/divorcing once your course has finished?'

I don't know if that's advisable if your in an abusive relationship, but it may give him the incentive to step up to the mark and make him aware that your not going to immitate his parents marriage. May be way off fhe mark, but it worked for us when we were going through a similar patch

Having read the whole thread, I have to agree with pp who have mentioned autism, e.g. being asocial, asexual/non-tactile, the lack of empathy, the perfectionism over practical tasks, wanting/needing to tune you out, etc. (I am on the autistic spectrum myself, so I am not working from a textbook here.) I also think the escalation of cruelty recently may be to do with the course he has started. I don't personally share a lot of the autistic traits I've mentioned above, but I certainly would find starting a new course in a new place with new people extremely stressful, and this would come out in the form of apparently (to others) petty niggles about minutiae - rooms, timetables, how the library set-up works, all of this is packed with stressors for someone with ASD - and also in the form of generalised nastiness at home. Just keeping up a facade of normal, even semi-detached, social interaction with new people on a course will be tying him in knots if he's on the spectrum.

However. Firstly this is all speculation on my part. And secondly... so what? It's very clear that how he is, whether that is reasonable/unreasonable, understandable/not understandable at all, is absolutely killing you. I often read MNers saying 'you sound lovely' to an OP, but in this case you really, really do - reflective, mature, ready to hold your own actions up to scrutiny. You sound smashing. And you also sound like you're ossifying from sadness. Does it really matter what's going on with him? What really matters imo is what's going on with you. And I think if you have to ride this out for very long you're going to start dying inside.

How long is this course? An academic year might be one thing, but an entire 3-year degree is way too long to keep this up imo. I think you are right to start looking at post-separation options. You mentioned way upthread about working p/t if he did, so presumably that is an option career-wise and it might tip the balance when it came to custody/residence discussions. It's not just about your needs or wants, but I think you also need to consider that his interactive style, which may be genetic or learned or a combination of both, is not entirely healthy for your children if your own contact with them is much reduced.

This sounds like an awful situation, OP. I really feel for you.

I could have written your post OP... But we have had no sex for a year and in the week i found porn on his ipad which he thinks is no worse than me liking vin diesel! He is miserable, grumpy and distant and despite ultimatums doesnt change... I too think he is with me for the life. He could never have afforded to buy a house without me.. i cant live like this forever but at the moment i cant even bare to look at him let alone go counselling with him. We deserve more x

Someone else who's wondering about Asperger's. Simply because he sounds very much like my OP who is undiagnosed but clearly on the spectrum. Lack of intimacy (hates being touched let alone hugged, and he,s admitted he feels very little during sex and doesn't masturbate as there's no point), communication can be difficult (I te to email him simply as he can process the written word better) and he can ignore me for days, yet doesn't realise he's doing it (I know that doesn't sound likely but I've realised it really is). At least in his case he acknowledges the larger problem, and whilst he may not realise he's ignoring me (or anyone else) at the time, he is open to being told and will modify his behaviour accordingly. And I find it helps knowing that there is a reason behind his behaviour.

No advice but the descriptions of your daily life with your H sound so chilling. It can't be doing your children any good either. They must be able to sense the tension.

Please do get advice from a solicitor asap

His mother has often remarked - sometimes half joking, sometimes not - that she thinks he has Asperger's. I don't know much about it, and I am not sure that 'diagnosing' him is going to be helpful - because if that is just the way he is, then I just have to live with it, don't I?

I do know he has an extremely low tolerance for noise, bright light, other people showing emotion (for example, if I ever get upset or cry he calls it a tantrum - he seems afraid or angry even if I am just sitting there silently with tears in my eyes) and he seems to feel that being asked questions (what time will you be back today? when can I have the car?) is something like a a direct attack. It varies - sometimes he's a bit more easy going than others, and certainly when he is stressed (as he is now) his tolerance is very low and it makes him pretty unbearable. He's incredibly inflexible in his thinking - I believe he literally does not understand that two people can have a different perspective on the same set of events and assign different meanings to something and that neither of them is lying - it completely infuriates and angers him when I have a difference perspective. There are 'the facts' and there are 'lies' and his perception is always the facts. He doesn't apologise - ever - it seems to be a matter of pride for him.

I don't know if these are due to neurological differences or personality traits or he's just a twat.

I've blocked him from being able to text or email me because he's been sending me horrible messages. He now has to speak to my face if he wants something, and if he's nasty or passive aggressive, I'm leaving the room. I'm otherwise being civil and just getting on with my life.

How has he responded to your request, OP? Do you think he will stick to it?

It sounds as if his anger is escalating. How much time are you spending at home together? Is it possible to take a holiday from work or work from home, and suggest he takes a holiday/visits friends for a week to get some space?

Sending positive thoughts.

Don't give up yet as you say you want it to improve not end.
It sounds to me like he's done an amazing job as a SAHD, I wouldn't be surprised if he is now feeling bereft, depressed, rudderless, without purpose.
I used to fantasise about time to myself but actually was quite depressed when the youngest started school! It feels like they don't need you any more, which is a big adjustment after years of full time childcare.
Given time hopefully he can develop other avenues that give his life meaning, validation, positivity.
But you do need counselling, too much to fix alone. Xx

Which request, scary? Do you mean about the email and text messages? I did ask him to stop with the messages, and he didn't, so I've blocked him.

fc I do know what you mean - but he's hardly rudderless, he's just at the start of an intense career related course he's wanted to do for ages, and which I am paying for. He's got plenty of direction. Just not much in the way of manners and respect. I agree with you about the counselling.

Christ, yes- I re-read and obviously he hasn't obliged. Does he realise you've blocked him?

I told him I had, and gave him my work landline number so if there's an emergency with the children he can call me. He can also telephone my mobile, just not send texts or emails. I'm not leaving myself open to his crap any longer.