...to be considering leaving?

[shinyredbookcase]

On paper, I have the perfect life. I have a well paid job I love with flexible (but long hours). I have healthy, happy children and a nice house in a nice area. DH is a stay at home dad and he's really good at it, very committed and involved with the children, has great relationships with each of them and additionally he is very practically supportive of me. I have friends and get out to see them once or twice per month.

DH hasn't touched or spoken to me - other than practical things to do with the kids, without making eye contact - for twelve days. We've not had sex for a month, and we rarely have sex more than once per month. I can't remember the last time we spent time together alone: once the kids are in bed he says he needs time alone and spends time on his computer or out running. I've checked his phone and computer (there are no passwords) and there's no porn, weird emails etc. He is a bit less tech savvy than me but more than capable of a secret phone / private browsing etc. Though I just don't see it in his character.

I've tried to speak to him about the coldness and distance in our relationship and his lack of interest in any kind of emotional or physical contact with me many times. His parents are the same and but he knows I don't consider this normal and that I am unhappy. He knows the very specific things he does that make me feel unwanted and unhappy. He's asked me to initiate sex and tell him I want to spend time together in the evenings, but when I do he consistently turns me down - he's either tired, needs time alone, had planned to watch something on the television, etc etc etc.

I've been blunt with him - he says he isn't gay and he doesn't masturbate. There's no health problems that I know of - he eats well, is physically fit. I am of average appearance but no different to when we met. A tiny bit heavier but of medium build and good personal hygiene. I shower before bed.

I understand a SAHP needs time alone to recharge and can get 'touched out' but our kids at school age and the youngest is just finishing Year One so for the past two years he's been alone 9-3.15 every day. He does the bulk of the housework but I clean bathrooms, do ironing and cooking at weekends and share the school drop offs.

I'm not sure where to go from here. I've asked him if he wants to split up and he says the children need him, he is planning a professional IT course to get him back into work now the kids are all at school, and that I'm asking too much. I can't imagine the rest of my life like this.

Best wishes OP and hope things improve. Without wanting to jinx the chances of things getting better at home though, I wanted to say that your vision of sitting alone in a bedsit isn't necessarily how things would go if you did decide to end your marriage. Others on MN will know much much more about this than I do, but I have seen an example of a somewhat similar situation at close hand recently.

A dear friend of mine got divorced earlier this year having been the sole earner for nearly ten years - during this time her H was SAHP for their DD and she was working 70 hour weeks. They've worked it all out between them rather than going to court or anything but the deal is that he has had to go out and get a job and will have sole ownership of what used to be the marital home. Their DD is 70% at her DFs and 30% with her DM. My friend has changed job (still full time but less responsibility/hours/salary) is renting a two bed flat and saving towards buying somewhere.

Obviously some or all of this might not apply in your situation, but I wanted to share my friend's experience to show that you wouldn't necessarily be shunted off if you did decide to split up. It has been tough for her but has also shown her that there is another way of living to the life that was making her (and indeed her exH) very unhappy.

Thanks, mrsmalcolm

I guess I am just assuming what would happen if we did split up. I could go and find out what my options are.

I suppose for months - longer than that - I've been feeling horrible because I've been convinced he's only with me because of the house and the kids. And I never stopped to think that much about how I feel about him. Never stopped and examined, properly, why I am with him. And I think the way he's been acting has killed my love and respect for him and I am only with him for the house and the kids too. I think the short counselling and posting here helped me think about that - to admit it to myself.

I think there probably is something going on with him - perhaps it's along the lines that janecc mentioned - it might well be - but the fact is, he's never actually said what the problem is and I am done with mind reading. It could be he hates me, he's miserable, he's gay, he prefers someone else, he's got a gambling problem - it could be anything at all - but he just isn't saying. He's being passive aggressive and nasty - constantly. He's spoken to me twice today - the first time was to tell me off for not putting the recycling out properly - the second was to tell me I was asking too many 'leading questions' when chatting to one of our kids over tea. Tiny things, I know - but the tone is dripping with contempt, and it is literarily the only two things he's said to me all day. I can't work with that - can't guess what is wrong, can't fix it, and can't really have a relationship with him.

I don't want to be one of those people who hates their partner, and is always complaining about them, making themselves and everyone around them miserable, but who just won't leave. I don't want to damage my kids. I don't want to throw his future down the toilet - he's devoted several years of his life to bringing up our children and he deserves a chance at his own career: if I left, he'd have to give up this course and start earning more or less right away, even if I did support him, I can't run two house-holds and our school age kids don't need a full time parent at home any more. But I don't think I want to live with him any more.

I am not where where to go now. I think I need to work on detaching - to pretty much considering myself emotionally single. I don't mean an affair or another relationship - I just mean - to stop expecting affection and conversation and even eye contact - but just to assume he's there, in the house, that I have to buy enough food for him, but otherwise, just ignore him and let him go about his day.

Perhaps it is my expectations that are the problem. If I never expected him to hold me and smile at me, I would never be sad. And I have friends and hobbies and healthy children and an interesting job and perhaps, for the time being, that will be enough - and once he's finished his training and got some work, we can sell the house and go our separate ways peacefully.

He doesn't sound very nice at all, he sounds selfish, vindictive and cruel.

Is this really the relationship you want to model for your kids? Grab some happiness for yourself, you deserve so much more

No, it isn't. But we only argue when I ask for something he doesn't want to give - time, sex, affection, closeness, conversation. The only person the kids ever see upset is me. If I can expect less, and detach from him, and hang on in there until he's working, a split would be less disruptive. If I left now, we'd have to sell this house right away, he'd have to ditch his course, he'd probably have to go live with his parents and see them less - or I'd have to go and live somewhere as cheap as I could find and see them less - 50/50 wouldn't be achievable. If I can detach myself and protect myself until he is earning, it could be better.

And yes, I do deserve more happiness. But it's not like Mr Right it waiting around the corner - what is around the corner is financial difficulty, uncertainty, a house move, disruption and probably a massive amount of animosity from him towards me that the kids would be exposed to. I think if I can stuff my feelings down things could be more peaceful.

Oh sweetheart, it's like the only way you can see to survive is to become like him

I actually think he's abusive, he is cruel and causing you so much pain, it just isn't normal.

Oh shinyredbookcase sorry things aren't any better.

I hope that he's not a nasty evil bastard - I hope that he's hurt, or depressed, or angry - or he's just not able to talk right now. And I hope that if I step back, detach, accept he doesn't want me and it has everything to do with him and nothing to do with me (that I can understand, right now) then he'll come back. I know I needed to do more housework and I consistently am. Perhaps there are other things I need to do to thaw him a bit and they will occur to me. But I just want to find a way to not feel hurt anymore and to be happy on my own - that will have to happen anyway if we split up so it might as well happen now.

OP as I've said, I don't want you to give up on your DH if you're not ready to, but I do think you should perhaps look at your options properly. You sound completely ground down and without hope (which is completely understandable) and it reads to me like you can't actually envisage a different life, in which you could be happy.

Although it may be that you won't be happy again with your DH, I don't think you can prepare for bring happy alone by trying to exist separately within the marriage. There are constant reminders there of what you want but can't have, quite apart from the fact that your DH seems to be being actively hurtful now.

You seem to feel very guilty about what you perceive as him giving up things, and no doubt he has. That doesn't mean you have to stay together to provide him with opportunities now though, at the cost of your own happiness and mental health. I also strongly suspect that your DC will be aware on some level that things are not right and that will get more and more so over time.

I do feel guilty - yes. After I read what janecc posted I started to think of all the criticisms he makes of me - and they generally are round housework. Now I am doing about half - and he's doing his course - and I'd hope that would make a huge difference to the balance of power and how it feels for him. But it hasn't been very long - not long enough, perhaps, for him to really feel the difference. And he seems so stressed and anxious about the course - full of complaints about the timetable, the other people, the rooms, the library, etc - it sounds like he is miserable, or disappointed, or angry - or that he's just not coping. But it has only been a couple of weeks. And I want to give it longer - for him to see what things are like when we both have friends and interests out of the house, and we're both doing equal amounts of housework - and to see if that makes him happier.

And yes, I have to protect myself. I think all this sulking and isolation and criticism isn't to do with me - I think there's something going on with him. He's unhappy, clearly - but I don't understand why. I think when I get upset and beg for attention we have an argument about THAT - and perhaps if I drop the rope and withdraw completely and still do housework, he will have nothing at all to complain about where I am concerned, then he will have to face up to what is actually making him miserable. I really can't believe that my inability to crush the milk bottles small enough for his liking is really the reason why he hasn't spoken to me at all since this morning and why he's (as I type) pulling his blankets out of the bedroom to sleep somewhere else. I just don't believe that is all there is. And if I don't react, and be calm, and find a way to be happy no matter what is going on with him, perhaps I will feel better.

Having read all of this, I cant help but feel desperately sad for you OP. I can see many of the points others have made as to why he may be acting this way, however if he doesn't talk to you, you will never know. Now you have changed your life to appease these unspecified issues and still nothing has changed.

I completely understand why you don't want to leave now, for all of you, but having your children watch you desperately sad and your husband ignoring you is no good for them either.

I don't have anything helpful to suggest as as far as I can see you are in a catch 22 situation. You aren't happy where you are, you don't feel you can leave, and no matter how much you change your life to please him, if he doesn't talk it won't work. I'm thinking of you though and really really hope it gets better for you in one way or another.

I feel so sorry for you - you sound desperately sad. You seem to have tried and tried and tried to find solutions here but if he will not make any attempt (for whatever reason) to meet you halfway then you may have to give up on the relationship, I'm afraid. Try not to let him totally erode your sense of self.

One thing that strikes me is that you have put so much effort into this, and he seems to have put nothing into it at all as far as your happiness is concerned... maybe it's time to get a little more selfish and really think seriously about moving on. Good luck - have confidence in yourself; I don't think it will be as difficult as you think as you are obviously a strong and capable person.

Op, you're modifying your behaviour, walking on eggshells.thinking about everything you do and how it might just please him. He may be depressed, he may just be an abusive asshole, either way it's no way to live and the kids will pick up on this. Would you want your son to be like this with his future wife, would you want your daughter to be this miserable? This is where they learn how adult relationships work and it will have a massive impact on them.

If you won the lottery tomorrow would he be happy? Doubt it.

Oh god - I know - I know it sounds terrible. But I've been LONGING for affection and company and attention for months, and it isn't happening, and it's making me dislike him, and I think the calmest and kindest thing I can do right now is train myself not to care. And work out what will happen when I leave. I think it is 'when' but I don't think it can be soon. I do think he needs to be earning his own money, we need to have established a pattern of shared care, and I need to see if him getting out of the house and me doing half of the housework actually makes a difference: I need to know that for my own sanity, and neither of those things are unreasonable things for him to want or for me to do.

This morning he asked me did I want to have the car for day and do the school run, or could he take it. I said I didn't mind at all - his choice. He decided to take the car. Later on, the kids were moaning about walking to school, and I said (friendly and calm, not in a 'tone' or like a dig) 'come on now, daddy's having the car this morning and we'll walk and find conkers on the way,' and he overheard me, came into the room and in front of the kids told me to stop making things up and lying. I can KIND OF see he thought I was having a dig about him taking the car in front of the kids - kind of making a point by talking about him and not to him - but my tone was cheerful and I genuinely didn't mind and I just wanted him to have the choice so there was nothing for him to moan and sulk about.

Whatever he thinks I am doing or not doing, it is so far from what I intend that it is INSANE. It feels almost like the more I step back and ignore him the angrier and more contemptuous he gets. The more I give him space, the more he acts out to get a reaction out of me.

I just said, 'oh, okay then,' and shrugged and changed the subject.

What do I want? I want him to be civil to me, then leave me alone. I want him to be calm and friendly with the kids and stop being passive aggressive towards me in front of them. I want space. I don't really feel sad he's not hugging me or touching me anymore - because I dislike him so much I don't want him to.

OP, I don't think you should do anything hasty like leaving but I do think you should start thinking about divorce. Your partner is not being a husband to you and he refuses counselling so the marriage is effectively over. Print out your posts here and go to see a divorce lawyer. You don't have to live in a bedsit or lose your kids there are lots of less extreme solutions which you can discuss at mediation. Good luck. You and your children and your H all deserve a happier life.

Op when I was a SAHP I felt a bit of a non person, and whilst I was married to a good and hard working man I felt beholden to him for everything and (quite wrongly) I felt I had no right to have any say/opinion/make a decision on anything financial family related. DH never said I couldn't or shouldn't but it was just something in me.
Then going to work to pick up career/life was very scary, trying to get that confidence back was difficult, I was very preoccupied and grumpy!

I would think that a man who has been a SAHP, would find this even harder mainly because of society's perception of the role of men.

I would think that even he does not realise that this lack of confidence and fear of how he is going to manage the future is affecting his relationship with you.

My advice just support and encourage him, the course must be scary, how many years since he was a school or college?
I think once he is being successful once more your relationship will alter for the better, can you wait that long?

Hi OP! I have read more or less the whole thread and I feel angry, not sad , on your behalf. It seems you have tried everything, now it's your turn to be selfish. You are not responsible for his happiness, let him deal (or not) with his own problems. I would have an affair in a short term if I were you, just to make yourself feel better and desirable, and think carefully of a long-term strategy to escape. He is a grown up man, capable of making his way in the world, don't feel you own him for looking after your children, it was after all his choice as well. Good luck, you seem like a good person and I am sure you will meet a man who appreciates you .
P.S. Don't worry about your kids, they will understand on day the whole dynamic, don't let them take his coldness and model in their own lives later.

Obviously, owe him, not own him

Did you correct him when he called you a liar? You won't be able to win, he is not reasonable or rational. Please don't expose the kids to this for too long.

No, I didn't. There's no point in correcting him. He's right, everyone else is wrong, every problem or difficulty he has is somebody else's fault, and there's only one possible way of seeing the world - and that's his.

Hzaelbite - half of the time, I feel like you suggest - just supporting him and riding this out. The other half of the time, I want to do what user suggests - just start ignoring him, having an affair and biding my time until I can slide out of here.

What would happen if you put your foot down, told him that his behaviour is intolerable and damaging and if he doesn't want to be in the relationship then he needs to leave?

God, OP, this man has done a real number on you.

The thing this morning about the car sounds a bit like gas lighting... does he do that kind of thing a lot?

And your technique you're using to stay sane sounds like the acting like a rock thing I've seen mentioned here before, for people to use as a technique to help with making someone emotionally abusive lost interest in them when NC isn't an option. Have you read about that?

I totally understand you keeping your powder dry while you see whether his course leads to any improvements, and if not then until he's working, when all the practicalities of finances and shared care will be easier. I think you should see a solicitor soon though, so that you know exactly where you stand. It will enable you to set a time frame for when to initiate a separation if things don't improve. And it will be great for you to have as much knowledge as possible in case your husband suddenly pulls the plug on the relationship or if you realise the situation at the moment is badly affecting your kids.

I'd also find a good therapist or confide in a trusted friend, if I were you. You need emotional support.

I've told him until I'm blue in the face that he's damaging our relationship, my liking and respect for him, that I am unhappy and that I want to leave. I've told him I think he's with me for the kids and the pay cheque, and if he doesn't even like me, I want him to leave. He says one of these things:

I am hungover / pissed (I do have a history of drinking too much, but I stopped drinking entirely several months ago, have been entirely tee-total since and I feel great about it)

I am hormonal

I am hungry / tired / need a fag (I stopped smoking months ago too).

Or he will bring up something I've done wrong and he would want to spend time with me if only I would behave a bit better. He can get really nasty. 'It's simple logic, shiny,' he says, 'when you're unpleasant to be around, people don't want to be around you.' But mainly he just turns it back around onto me.

It goes like this:

Me: every night this week you've gone upstairs and closed the door at 8pm, as soon as the kids are in bed. I feel upset and ignored. Can we do something together tonight?
Him: don't feel like it / tired / want to go out / watch telly / be alone
Me: What's happening? What's wrong? Why are you avoiding me?
Him: nothing. I'm not avoiding you.
Me: I'm unhappy in our relationship. You know that you stonewalling me makes me unhappy. You're still doing it.
Him: yes - but you left the recycling out last night / left the lights on when you parked the car / didn't get the kids to bed on time / forgot to pay the gas bill / spoke rudely to me three weeks ago / four years ago turned me down when I asked you to go on a date with me.

Then we talk about how bad I am at housekeeping, or whatever, and we never ever talk about what I want to talk about - which is the real reason why he is avoiding me or ignoring me.

Well - that is how it USED to go. Now I don't smoke or drink, I do at least half the housework, if not more, and I am not asking him for anything - I don't ask to spend time with him, for sex, or for anything at all. We don't argue about it because I don't ask for it. He tries to pick fights about other things, but I mainly just agree with him, or apologise for not remembering to thank him for my meal, or shrug and say neutral things until he gets bored and goes away.

And gaslighting - yes. He quite often quotes me as saying things that I never said. Or he assumes I feel or think something, then gets annoyed with me because I feel or think it. I think it's all excuses for picking a fight with me - because there's something deeper going on. I have no idea, literally no idea at all, what that might be.

I've done a lot of reading these past few months. He is a classic, classic, 100% passive aggressive. He won't ask for what he wants, he won't say no or yes, he won't take responsibility for anything. It is HIDEOUS to live with. He acts like he's terrified of me - like saying, 'no, I don't want to hang out with you, I don't like you,' is going to earn him a beating (there's never been anything like that, ever between us and not from his parents towards him either) so instead he says he's with me, then acts in a way that communicates, to me, intense dislike and contempt. He never, ever, ever apologises. He shut the door on my hand once - it was totally accidental - and he refused to say sorry because he hadn't intended it. It was like an apology, for him, was an admission of weakness rather than just an expression of care and regret.

I look at his parents' marriage and it terrifies me. They sleep separately and have done for years. They both have rich and separate social lives, holiday separately. I've never once seen them touch each other. I don't think they really talk at all other than when their kids are round. They're warm grandparents, but the atmosphere between them is chilly and indifferent. According to DH, his father used to work lots of hours and go out all the time when he was a kid, his mother was left at home with four kids, used to hate him for neglecting her, and then basically gave up, waited for the kids to grow up and went out and got her own life. Her kids are fairly certain she's had a couple of emotional if not physical affairs and that FIL either hasn't noticed, or doesn't really care.

shinyred I just want to echo others posters with my sympathy and support in your situation - you are clearly working so hard

I also wanted to suggest that you have this thread moved to Relationships, where there are posters who have experience in talking through related situations. (Although I think the advice and support here has been great - the best of AIBU ).

(You can have the thread moved by reporting one of your posts and requesting a move in the comments).

shiny Crossed posts. He does sound terribly abusive and you shouldn't have to live that way. It's him, not you.

He sounds pretty awful, to be honest. I couldn't live like this; you are entitled to affection and intimacy, they are basic needs. If he isn't prepared to get help for this, I can't see how there is any other option but to split. Imagine looking backwards after several more years of this loveless hell; you'd hate yourself for putting up with it.