...to be considering leaving?

[shinyredbookcase]

On paper, I have the perfect life. I have a well paid job I love with flexible (but long hours). I have healthy, happy children and a nice house in a nice area. DH is a stay at home dad and he's really good at it, very committed and involved with the children, has great relationships with each of them and additionally he is very practically supportive of me. I have friends and get out to see them once or twice per month.

DH hasn't touched or spoken to me - other than practical things to do with the kids, without making eye contact - for twelve days. We've not had sex for a month, and we rarely have sex more than once per month. I can't remember the last time we spent time together alone: once the kids are in bed he says he needs time alone and spends time on his computer or out running. I've checked his phone and computer (there are no passwords) and there's no porn, weird emails etc. He is a bit less tech savvy than me but more than capable of a secret phone / private browsing etc. Though I just don't see it in his character.

I've tried to speak to him about the coldness and distance in our relationship and his lack of interest in any kind of emotional or physical contact with me many times. His parents are the same and but he knows I don't consider this normal and that I am unhappy. He knows the very specific things he does that make me feel unwanted and unhappy. He's asked me to initiate sex and tell him I want to spend time together in the evenings, but when I do he consistently turns me down - he's either tired, needs time alone, had planned to watch something on the television, etc etc etc.

I've been blunt with him - he says he isn't gay and he doesn't masturbate. There's no health problems that I know of - he eats well, is physically fit. I am of average appearance but no different to when we met. A tiny bit heavier but of medium build and good personal hygiene. I shower before bed.

I understand a SAHP needs time alone to recharge and can get 'touched out' but our kids at school age and the youngest is just finishing Year One so for the past two years he's been alone 9-3.15 every day. He does the bulk of the housework but I clean bathrooms, do ironing and cooking at weekends and share the school drop offs.

I'm not sure where to go from here. I've asked him if he wants to split up and he says the children need him, he is planning a professional IT course to get him back into work now the kids are all at school, and that I'm asking too much. I can't imagine the rest of my life like this.

I would hate myself.

He's been at home today (I work from home sometimes and today is one of those days). He's done a LOAD of housework, DIY, laundry, etc - he's so good and careful at that kind of thing and he works so hard.

I've been quiet, polite but generally just avoiding him. He came in to see me and said, 'can you let me know when you're going to get over this latest tantrum?'

I have no idea how to answer questions like that. What do I say?

I'm not having a tantrum, I just don't want to talk to you because I don't like you anymore?

I'm not angry, I am despairingly sad because of all the reasons I've already told you, many many times, and which you refuse to accept?

I'm not punishing you, I'm avoiding you to protect myself from your relentless snide remarks and criticism?

You've communicated really clearly you don't want me near you. I get the message now and I am staying away.

I didn't say any of these things. I started to say 'I'm not having a tantrum,' and he kind of huffed and smirked and walked out.

I'm off out tonight seeing friends, and again tomorrow night to a craft club. Can't wait.

I really worry about your mental health if you're planning to stay for what seems like a long duration course.

You said above that he's great at getting stuff done; well, to be brutally honest, that's his job. He's a SAHD and his job is sorting the kids out and sorting the house. I'm a SAHM and I expect to have the laundry done, house clean, kids sorted, dinner ready when DH gets home, it's my job. I have a toddler so it's all a bit slack at the moment, but if I was childless from 9-3 then I absolutely would be caning the housework. He's not some super bloke for doing these things. In fact, if my DH was my meal ticket to retraining and I thought my marriage might be down the pan, I'd be super nice to him to keep things ticking over while I retrained, not pissing him off so he walks. I think your DH knows exactly what he's doing and seems to be getting some kick out of it if he's smirking.

Your kids will be picking up on all of this. See a solicitor, get your house in order and get out. If he wants to retrain, let him sort it out. If he really cared about the training or you, he wouldn't be gas lighting and picking fights. It seems like the more you retreat, the more he picks on you. I wonder if he knows you won't leave.

If he's depressed and needs treatment, then let him sort that out. There's nothing to say you can't try again in the future if you both want that once he's better. But save your sanity and protect yourself.

I am so sorry to read your posts shiny I know people have suggested your husband's behaviour may be due to depression autism etc but nothing can excuse it.

I had a friend with a husband very similar to yours and he was a passive aggressive abusive arsehole. She would tear her hair out trying to find a way to get him to communicate etc but he wouldn't and blamed her for imaginary reasons. He was no better with the children and she realised it was damaging them so decided to get a divorce.

For various reasons it was delayed and she found the only way to deal with him was not trying to start a conversation but rather to just acknowledge whatever he said. So in your example re having a tantrum she would simply respond with 'fine, ok' and walk away. She could tell he hated it and she found it very difficult initially but decided there was no point trying to talk to him which would be thrown back in her face. She also did not instigate any conversation with him unless necessary - she told me she eventually came to think of him as an unpleasant housemate rather than the man she had once loved.

I don't know if you would find it helpful to try this - it worked for her to keep her sanity until she was able to divorce. She and the children are living very happily now.

Hope you really enjoy your night out and good luck.

You must be getting to him, that comment was purely to bait you.

He does the housework, so what, when I was a sahm I was epic too. Stop putting him on a pedestal just because he is a bloke that cleans, if you were a man and he was female you wouldn't be lauding him for his talents.

Carry on as you are, he is not reasonable, you cannot reason with him, continue to preserve your mental health.

Why don't house a solicitor and fu d out how this may go?
This sounds like emotional abuse so you may find it doesn't go the way you imagine it will for him.
Try women's aid? They may advise you.

By the way, he doesn't actually have to retrain to work either, he can get a job in a shop or something, don't see why you have to fund his college course just to put him in a better situation to fight you for custody.

I think in this situation I'd have to up the ante. (Disclaimer: I don't do detaching very well.)

"can you let me know when you're going to get over this latest tantrum?"
"When you stop being such a cunt."

Yeah yeah I know, keep your powder dry. But there's only so much abuse and shit you can take from these utter cockwombles before you start to hate yourself for not standing up to the bullying.

Make your exit plan, OP. Make it soon.

I think I probably am getting to him. He has literally nothing to complain about - I'm being polite to him, just not fawning over him for attention. I'm doing well over half the housework, bringing in our income and doing all the kids' homework with them. He can have no complaints at all - the only thing I am not doing is exposing myself, or responding to, his passive aggressive digs and snide remarks.

I don't want an argument. I don't want to talk to him about it - I've told him how I feel and what I want hundreds of times and I think he likes me begging. I just want him to leave me alone. I don't think he gets that - that something has changed in me now. I don't think I get it, not really.

I should make an appointment with the solicitor to find out what's what. I know I should. I feel so reluctant to do it, because I really don't want things to end. But I am not sure what he could do now, if anything, that would make me feel any different. I am not sure he's even capable of being a warm and present partner. If he has some huge issue with me and he's refused to discuss it, then I'm not sure I'm even that open to listening to what his actual problem is, after being tortured with his snide shit for such a long time. I think he's had his chance with me.

I had such a nice time last night, and walked home slowly to make sure he'd be asleep before I got home.

Rorty that is kind of what I'm trying to do - give him no emotional reaction at all. He's either trying to bait me, or punish me, or something else - but it's all snide and indirect and I'm just not playing any more. I don't care. And I think it is getting to him. It isn't why I am doing it - I am not trying to rile him up or punish him - but it is interesting to observe. Maybe he'll finally get so bored and frustrated he'll tell me what the actual problem is. Though I don't think he knows, and I think I am past caring.

I will research solicitors this weekend but I haven't decided yet if I want to go that far, just yet.

Him calling it a tantrum has MASSIVELY fucked me off. I am still steaming angry about it. I haven't raised my voice, haven't expressed any anger at all, haven't asked him for anything - all I have done is quietly and with great civility removed myself from his attacks. And he's calling it a tantrum - infantilising me and my feelings and my logical, calm, adult response to the way he is behaving. And that's part of it - the way I can't have my feelings, I can't possibly have a logical reason for doing what I do - he's got to describe me as irrational, overemotional, and childlike. It makes me feel like breaking windows. I will not, of course. But I'm livid in a way I don't think I really have been before.

A couple of weeks ago we were at a family birthday party - one of his nephews was crying because he didn't get any birthday cake. He did have cake, he'd just forgotten about it or got confused or something. Anyway, DH said to his sister, 'oh, it doesn't matter if he's actually had cake, you've just got to listen to and respect his feelings, no matter what the facts are,' and sort of looked at me meaningfully, smirking. It stuck in my craw at the time, though I didn't say anything, but now I think about it it was just another one of his nasty, barbed remarks that meant, 'when you're upset about things, it is totally fictional, and I have to pretend it isn't fictional in order to pacify you' AND to do it in front of his family.

I don't know why, because he's just left me alone this morning, and the kids were fine, and he's off to his course and I'm working at home - so really I got what I wanted, which was him being civil and leaving me alone - but all this is rattling around in my head and I am FURIOUS. And if I express that to him, it's me who is being unreasonable, emotional, childlike etc.

Perhaps I am. I have no idea. But I don't think I am.

If it wasn't for the ages of your children, I would swear you had the misfortune of being married to my ex husband.

After 18 months I felt as if I had built my house on sand. Our relationship felt fraudulent- he did not like me. He did not want to touch me. If I tried to talk about it, he told me that if I was nicer to him/cleaned more/was happier he would feel more inclined to be affectionate towards me.

Eventually it got too much, and I told him I was leaving- out came a story (the truth? I don't know) about the reasons he couldn't stand to have sex with me (his ex girlfriend had been viciously assaulted, and when having sex he couldn't stop thinking about this- his last three relationships ended for the same reason).

We separated, he was so like your husband in that he would lie and distract and change the subject to avoid talking about the real problem.

Leaving was easier as we had no children. But it was the start of my real life. I'd stayed with him because I felt it was what I 'should' do. I thought being married would make other people think I was successful and respectable. I was in a rush to be grown up. like you, I spent all my time obsessing over why he didn't want to be with me...and then when I stopped to think about whether I wanted to be with him, I found that all my attraction to him had been killed.

Sorry for the long post, but I hope you are able to have him move out and give you some space so you can start carving out a future for you.

It is EXACTLY like that, scary - he doesn't seem to like me, and I've been upset about that, and he tells me if I did more housework and acted less upset, then he would like me. I am oversimplyfying what he says, but the gist of it is precisely the same as what you've just described.

Your ex sounds like he was traumatised and part of me feels sorry for him - and part of me thinks he should have got some help, or stayed out of relationships until he was emotionally and mentally strong enough to act like an adult in them. It's horrible for him, but then he chose to make it horrible for you.

When you found out what the actual problem was, did you think about staying and trying, or was it too late by that point? How did you know it was too late?

I still feel sorry for my DH. He's obviously unhappy and I don't know why. But mostly, I just feel angry. I don't think he's tried as hard as I have. I don't think he cares that I have been obviously unhappy for a long time. And I think he feels contempt for me and he's too cowardly or attached to the paycheque to admit it.

I do really feel for you, as it's such a lonely place to be. When love and affection is slowly withdrawn over time, the erosion on your self esteem is often immeasurable. I had friends and family- but what you expect from your husband to provide for you in support cannot be matched by anyone else.

So after my ex explained his reasons why, I very much wanted to try and fix things. He agreed to go to counselling. A few weeks went by- he did nothing. Nothing changed. He was as cold as ever. Wouldn't talk to me- reverted back to the same dialogue as before.

I then insisted that he booked a counselling appointment, or I would leave. On reflection, maybe this was immature- but I was desperate. He returned with a list. He told me his counsellor had told him that he needed to say "it's not me, it's YOU". And he was almost gleeful about this. The list included things about HIS need for support, MY unreasonable demands for socialising and family contact, how I hadn't respected his wants as a person and that I had pushed him around and dominated him. I was totally shellshocked. When I asked if he had spoken at all about the attack on his ex he told me HE DIDNT THINK IT WAS IMPORTANT. I cannot even express my fury about this. Instead, he had gone and painted me as a spiteful lazy selfish party girl.

I asked him to leave.

He told his family that I had become bored of him, and that's why I asked him to leave.

I do feel very sorry for him, but the lies and the deflection made me lose all respect for him. I know he has remarried and had children with someone else- I hope following our split that he had the courage to deal with his problems head on and overcome his aversion to sex and sexual contact.

Fucking hell scary that is tragic. For you, for him. I am so glad that you were able to get out and find happiness. I hope he sorted himself out too.

It seems like he was faced with a choice: have the courage to deal with his painful demons, or blame them on you. And he chose the easier path. You became a bit of a scapegoat for him, didn't you? Easier to cause you pain than to deal with his own.

It sounds like such a familiar dynamic but I have searched and thought and asked and I just have no idea at all what is going on with DH. I don't think he's had something traumatic happen. I think he's probably learned this kind of communication from his parents - and perhaps he expects or hopes I will deal with it the way his mother has, by withdrawing and making herself content by getting her kicks elsewhere. It's so sad.

Have you found a pattern to his behaviour? What was he like with you pre children? During your pregnancies? Post baby?

Does he have a good relationship with his parents?

I suppose you could spend hours psychoanalysing him, but if you have been trying to help for a sustained period of time, at some point you may have to accept he doesn't want your help?

Fortunately I was young to marry, and young to divorce. At the time, I struggled with my self esteem and my teenage eating disorder returned (for which he had zero sympathy) but I was lucky to be surrounded by supportive friends and family. I started a new relationship with my now husband within a year of leaving, and we now have two children. Life is good now. Nothing is ever perfect, but it is a real relationship. There is passion and affection and mutual respect.

Post kids, definitely. I think perhaps he doesn't want to be a SAHD or it was harder or more boring than he thought. My career really took off, and he's never really had much of one. I never minded about that - but perhaps he did? A lot of his comments are about taking me down a peg or too - perhaps he is jealous or resentful?

BUT he could have gone back to work or out to retrain whenever he wanted - he's been at home for two years since the youngest went to school - and I've not pressured him, but encouraged him to do whatever he wanted. It might have felt like pressure, it might have felt like I wasn't interested - but I cannot mind read.

I think it might be to do with the SAHD thing. He's brilliant at it, but I think he's resented it and blamed me for his lack of ambition or get up and go.

His parents - cordial but distant. He isn't close to anyone: he has acquaintances but no friends at all, never socialises and never invites anyone over. That's just what he's like - same as before we had kids.

He stopped speaking to his parents once for three years, then started again. This is before I met him, so I don't really understand why. Never spoken to his parents about it. They're terrified of him now - terrified he'll withdraw again so the conversation is always very superficial and light - I think they don't know what they did, and they are scared of accidentally doing it again.

It's as if he sees you as some kind of all-knowing all-powerful controller of his happiness. As if you are responsible for his ambition and happiness. He is merely a passenger, and you are driving?

What must be infuriating is his insinuation that you need 'taking down a peg or two' when what he really must mean, is that he wishes to be taken up a peg.

Where are you now in terms of initiating the separation?

I'm not sure. I'm feeling really really angry today and it's not the best time to make a decision. I want to calm down and think things through carefully.

I think I want to give it more time. If the past few years of him at home have robbed him of his self confidence and left him feeling depressed and resentful, then him starting this course is exactly the right thing for him to do for himself - and I want to support him. If that is going to make a difference to his mood and our dynamic, then I want to give it a chance to do that - he's only been at it a couple of weeks and I think he and I need more time to see about that. But now much time? January? That sounds good to me. If he's still playing this silly game in the New Year, I will tell him we're done.

In the meantime, I want to gather information as to what I would be entitled to if I did leave, and I want to brain storm some strategies for dealing with his passive aggression. I don't know if I should be totally ignoring it - as I have been doing these past few weeks - or if I should call it out, every single time, and name it for what it is.

So - if he says, 'you're having a temper tantrum,' I would say, very calmly,
'no, that isn't what is happening. I'm avoiding your hostile remarks. When you want to tell me what is wrong like an adult, please do. Until then, be civil or leave me alone.'

I don't know. I have ordered a book about passive aggressive men and that might have better guidance.

That sounds incredibly difficult, but given your situation I completely understand why you feel you must keep trying.

I really hope you have some luck with getting him to talk.

As he is so opposed to therapy (and given your last experience I can see why!) would it be worth trying a career coach instead? To help with the course and assist with planning his return to work?

Oh - that would be a good idea. But then again - if he wants one, he's just as able as I am to get on the internet and find one. I don't think I can suggest ways to 'fix' his life - I think if he's feeling resentment or like I drive things, then it would make things worse. And to be honest, I think I do drive things a bit and I don't want to drag him to a career coach or drag him to more therapy. I don't even want to 'get him to talk. I want to step back, as far as possible, take care of myself, and see what he does. He'll either sort himself out and reach out to me, or he won't and it has to be his decision and I am not waiting around forever while he makes it.

Thank you for talking to me. I feel much calmer and more purposeful than I did this morning.

Shiney, I like the way you're talking about this - very respectful of your H, you own your own experiences and feelings, you're reflective without being up your own rear end, and you're not being entitled or demanding or unreasonable.

You also hold down a good job and make things happen.

I think your H is so angry that you're a healthy whole human being, in touch with her needs and wants, able to ask for them, able to give and want to receive, loving sexual contact. You sound like a real threat psychologically to someone who finds these things hard, or impossible.
Every time you open your mouth you're showing your H a way of being that is the polar opposite of him - I'm not saying he's a bad, I have no view on that. But that what you show him are qualities that he must know he lacks, and so he has to bring you down, because you're threatening to his sense of self. And because you're calm and assertive etc, he can only attempt to do that either in public (where he knows your own sense of what is appropriate will stop you from reacting and things escalating) or in the most passive aggressive ways.

He won't ever be direct with you - it's far to threatening because he'll 'lose' and I suspect his sense of self is so poor that one of the only things left that can make him feel good about himself is, "well I'm a better person that Shiney".

I suspect that if your H ever did open up to you, it would be the most horrific angry blaming tirade - all the shit he's been metaphorically sitting on, which is coming out in drips and oozes towards you but which he can deny or justify, would explode onto you.

Good luck - you have a short term and long term plan and I wish you all the best with it.

Totally fair enough to not make a desire n while you're feeling emotional, shiny but channeling some of the anger into seeking out a SHL might be a good idea. It worries me that your changed responses to him might lead to him realising you're preparing to leave, in which case he might get in there first. I don't want you having the rug pulled from under your feet - knowledge is power and all that. See a solicitor quickly and find out what you need to do to get at least 50/50 residence of your children.

Desicion not desire.

Thank you - that is super kind.

I do feel more centred and in charge of myself - less reliant on him for comfort and validation - than I did when I first posted this thread. Some of the posts laid out to be really clearly just what I wasn't getting about the stress and boredom and isolation of being a SAHP and how the situation might appear to him. I did a lot of work with reading, the counsellor, taking up some self-care type stuff.

But it hasn't always been like this. I've cried and shouted and demanded - I've said if he doesn't want me, I'm going to get a boyfriend, I've accused him of only being here for my paycheque, I'd told him to leave, I've threatened to leave - none of this recently - but there have been tantrums and terrible emotional behaviour from me. That has stopped now and I feel better for it. Maybe be needs more time to come out of his shell, and if so, that is fair enough, but I am not putting up with the oozing shit (perfect description) in the meantime.

Have you considered that he might get custody of the children being the primary carer? And you would have to pay him maintenance? I think you need to think seriously about all of your relationship before deciding its over.