...to be considering leaving?

[shinyredbookcase]

On paper, I have the perfect life. I have a well paid job I love with flexible (but long hours). I have healthy, happy children and a nice house in a nice area. DH is a stay at home dad and he's really good at it, very committed and involved with the children, has great relationships with each of them and additionally he is very practically supportive of me. I have friends and get out to see them once or twice per month.

DH hasn't touched or spoken to me - other than practical things to do with the kids, without making eye contact - for twelve days. We've not had sex for a month, and we rarely have sex more than once per month. I can't remember the last time we spent time together alone: once the kids are in bed he says he needs time alone and spends time on his computer or out running. I've checked his phone and computer (there are no passwords) and there's no porn, weird emails etc. He is a bit less tech savvy than me but more than capable of a secret phone / private browsing etc. Though I just don't see it in his character.

I've tried to speak to him about the coldness and distance in our relationship and his lack of interest in any kind of emotional or physical contact with me many times. His parents are the same and but he knows I don't consider this normal and that I am unhappy. He knows the very specific things he does that make me feel unwanted and unhappy. He's asked me to initiate sex and tell him I want to spend time together in the evenings, but when I do he consistently turns me down - he's either tired, needs time alone, had planned to watch something on the television, etc etc etc.

I've been blunt with him - he says he isn't gay and he doesn't masturbate. There's no health problems that I know of - he eats well, is physically fit. I am of average appearance but no different to when we met. A tiny bit heavier but of medium build and good personal hygiene. I shower before bed.

I understand a SAHP needs time alone to recharge and can get 'touched out' but our kids at school age and the youngest is just finishing Year One so for the past two years he's been alone 9-3.15 every day. He does the bulk of the housework but I clean bathrooms, do ironing and cooking at weekends and share the school drop offs.

I'm not sure where to go from here. I've asked him if he wants to split up and he says the children need him, he is planning a professional IT course to get him back into work now the kids are all at school, and that I'm asking too much. I can't imagine the rest of my life like this.

You sound so lovely op. I hope you can work it out with him as it doesn't sound like you want to leave at all. But... I must say, depression and possible aspergersys traits aside, it does sound cruel at times, like putting the earphones in and taking your arms away. Has he ever been emotionally available to you? Have you always felt 'special' or honoured to be his inner confidante? Was your dad emotionally available to you?

"You sound so lovely op."

Agreed.

Theladyoriana is right, putting headphones on and putting your hands aside can feel so humiliating and lonely I imagine! It really shouldn't be this way.

It looks like he is modelling his own parents relationship. That's what he's been brought up to thinking is perfectly normal and acceptable.

What was he like before marriage? Was he affectionate then and did he stop Making effort after you both got married? Some people put a lot of effort into dating and don't bother once they are in a relationship.

What's he like with other people? What's his social communication skills like particularly eye contact?

He sounds depressed to be honest. And it's something he could easily have had for a long time, even when you two first met. GP would be his first port of call there.

I understand why people are suggesting couple's counselling and the like, but from other things you've said I wonder if focusing just on him might be a good start?
He knows how you feel, he knows how your day in work went etc. It may seem to both of you like he wouldn't have much to say about his day, but what about talking about the computer games he plays?

You have clearly tried so hard to make things different and been more tolerant and understanding than most people. I am of the view that this isn't about you, from what you've told us there are plenty of hints that he has some deep seated psychological issues. People can make a good job of hiding these for years , wanting to conform to accepted 'norms' . I don't really think couples counselling is the answer at the moment, I think he needs some sort of psychological intervention to look at the bigger picture. Sadly I doubt he will agree. I work in mental health, a lot of his behaviour isn't typically depressive, he functions practically but not emotionally. I suspect there's more in the background that you know about (and I don't think it's an affair, emotionally that would be too demanding). He needs to acknowledge that there's something wrong with his underlying psychological self. This is not something you can change for him. I hope I don't sound harsh but it's about him taking steps to look at what makes him feel and behave like this.

What about trying to see things perhaps how he sees them? I'm not saying I'm right btw - just playing devils advocate. This is not what I think btw but this is where massive misunderstandings happen. So here's what I'm wondering if he may be thinking:

• he left his much worse paid job he hated to be a sahd for an indeterminate period of time.
• whenever you discuss the possibility of going back to work, you threaten to go pt as well. So if he did work, that would effectively be a family salary cut. So he declines.
• right now, he can't provide for his family.
• you get to do all the glamorous stuff while he gets to do all the thankless tasks.
• you took him to counselling because he wasn't performing well enough sexually.
• now that he's not performing sexually at all, you've suggested a partnership where you can get your kicks elsewhere, continue to stay married where and he continues doing all the boring shit.
• and seriously you still expect him to want to talk to you. Let alone touch you? Are you out of your mind?

Maybe maybe I'm right about some things I've said here and maybe I'm wrong. What I'm trying to explain is that there are two sides to every story here. And I'm wondering if what is going on between the two of you is more of a massive misunderstanding spanning years. I had one with my dh, which lasted nearly a decade, where I thought he wasn't supporting me emotionally but he actually was - just from a man's perspective, not a woman's. This was about the awful treatment of me by my family members. He wasn't giving me what I wanted (which was to repeatedly tell them to back off and treat me with respect) because he simply couldn't see the point of doing what I wanted as it wouldn't solve anything - he had already done it and it didn't work. Once I started working on my issues myself and changed my perception of me and of them, I suddenly realised that what he was telling me all along was that I'm wonderful and they're really shit to me. Now he is really supportive of me and the way I handle them because I'm coping really well and doing so much better. He didn't want to step in and fight my battles - he wanted me to learn to fight for myself. I was so unhappy at some point that had I not been chronically ill, we possibly would have separated as this issue was a large looming problem in our lives. I got very good counselling and I'm not saying problem solved vis a vis my family but I'm not stressing anymore.

I think you're dead right to go to counselling by yourself. I think it will give you some strategies for dealing with the situation and help you to see clearer. If the counsellor you see takes sides against your dh, I would run a mile. I've had a lot of counselling over the years with several different people and it never is a one size fits all. None of this will help you to change your dh but it will help you to see life from a different perspective, give you some ideas and coping strategies and help you to see the way ahead, whichever one it is you choose. Right now, from what I can see, you don't have the tools you need to be the half of the relationship, which fits with your husband and maybe, perhaps once he starts his course and feels more confident and you've had some counselling, you will both find your way again as a couple.

YANBU in the slightest. Most people would not put up with sex once a month. It's the only differentiator between a good friendship & a relationship and is so important. His inaction is speaking volumes. I think you should end it

OP- I'm a SAHM, and I thought I'd be well suited to it because I'm an introvert, used to work from home, seldom saw people.

In fact, I find the challenges of SAHM much much harder.

It is isolating in a suffocating different way.

I have experienced a total erosion of self.

DH is flat out busy with work, but still has energy for gardening, has achieved promotions, studied and does a huge amount helping me at home. In contrast, I barely recognise the person I am now.

I used to spend a lot if time in my head, IYKWIM. I can't anymore. My days are the same everyday - housework, more housework, and housework again. Horrendous. I see DH achieving and then doing stuff at home and I feel, 'I'm achieving nothing and have no energy to do anything extra at home'. I feel as if my life is valueless. I said to DH, on the list of priorities, I am bottom of the pile. Kids first, DH's work obligations next, and only then me. If something crops up that needs to be done, the sacrifice of time is mine. Always. It is soul destroying.

As much as I would like free time, I am also fearful of both my DCs being in school properly because I am not sure this shell of a person can start again and be successful. The former me could, but I've lost her.

My heart goes out to your DH. I see myself.

So here's what I'm wondering if he may be thinking...

• Add to that what may seem to him like being pestered and pressured with regards to sex, physical contact and affection.
• What sounds like emotional blackmail by the OPs own admission (Seriously).
• waiting for and dreading the next blow-up over the whole no sex thing...

Depression or no, when your want for sex drops due to feeling low or low about yourself, it can feel like there is a huge amount of pressure to go along with it anyway, and that you're constantly being pestered for it or for any form of physical intimacy.
It's not the sort of thing you can just push through and get over by forcing yourself to do it. It can make you want it even less, feel like a mere object there to satisfy the other person's desires, and actually make you start resenting the person you love.

If the sexes were reversed, there'd be a lot more people telling OP they were being unreasonable. Maybe to stop thinking about your own desires and feelings, and focus on making your DH feel good in ways that can't be construed as you trying to get something out of it too. Do things for him that won't leave him thinking "she's going to be expecting sex from me now", so he can genuinely enjoy and appreciate those things.

My dp works full time and I work part time. 5 days a week I have our ds whilst dp works and 2 days a week he looks after ds whilst I work. I always think that sounds like we aren't together...we are!

My dp loves being with ds 2 days a week and like your dh is good at it, but I have realised his work also gives him purpose and motivation.

I have also realised that playgroups etc are really female dominated. Generally I avoid them cos I much prefer being with my friends who have kids than in a group of comparing competing mummies (just my perspective). I assume these groups and role must be harder for a sahd.

I would suggest email him (I do thid with dp if I can't say things out loud, he likes it cos it gives him time to think and respond). I am trained in counselling and was taught to feedback something called a feedback sandwich: positive negative positive:

For example structure the email:

1. Dear Bob (pretend name!), here are all the things I notice you do and are good at and appreciate: dusting, great with kids etc

1. I find it hard not to have some intimacy, not always sex but just closeness. I realise you are very giving of yourself all day but can you suggest a solution to this? (Ask him and see what he says)

1. Reinforce the positives: eg he is a good dad, you find him attractive etc whatever it may be and say you would like to open up some communication between you two.

Best of luck

Vixyboo, all very good points. However, telling a grown man he's good at dusting as the first point may not go down that well .

(nor would it go down with a woman, to be honest).

I've read the last few posts since mine. Most of them had some really insightful information. Thank you violet. Thought I was going to be flamed.

Op your sound like you're an overthinker. I'm an overthinker. If I did this to my dh he would and has completely shut down before. Your dh is doing the same. You're also bombarding him with so much to think about that he's hiding with a big 6 ft square shield above his head waiting for more crap to come his way. I am not going to show my dh this thread and I know if I did, he'd say you're completely bonkers and maybe allude to our past issues, which he basically described as "same shit, different day".

I've been thinking about how I would handle this now. Has anyone read the work done with women using dog training techniques to communicate with their husband? It's basically the idea of constant positive reinforcement and ignoring unwanted behaviour. it had great success with the women, who tried it. The men had no idea they were in a social experiment and expressed a higher level of satisfaction and happiness in their marriage. I think this is the only thing right now which will work.

I like the idea of Vixyboos shit sandwich. However right now, the situation is so sensitive that I don't think it would work. On more stable ground, in the future, yes, I've used them to great success myself. I've done the email thing myself. She may be a trained counsellor and Vixyboos please don't think I'm attacking you at what I'm saying because I'm genuinely not. However, I really don't think it's right approach now. I use emails with dh and only on one very particular issue at a time that we are struggling to see eye to eye on. Right now, you are seeing eye to eye on nothing. If you want to send an email or text, I would say really simple things like "I love you, you are a fantastic father". "I believe in you, I miss you, I miss us".

This all sounds really painful for you and maybe for DH too. I think it is so easy to notice the things he isn't doing or doing wrong and when we do that we can miss giving positive feedback for the stuff he is getting right. Is it possible that he now only hears you talking about what is missing (even if you are saying positive things too)? I am a counsellor and I can see how complex all of this is. I suggest that you go see someone by yourself and that could help you to develop more resources to support yourself so you wouldn't be giving signals to him to fill the bits you want filled. No matter what way you put it, I suspect he feels scared to try to meet your needs. And maybe counselling will support you to find new ways to get more of the good bits you have together. And shop around for a counsellor who gets it. Focusing on the sexual side isn't the real issue here. I suspect it could be about fear of attaching, of getting close to you, perhaps with a smattering of resentment or anxiety or self criticism too. I really hope you can find a way through all of this.

Gosh people are advising much more tolerant advice than I would give.

It sounds as though he isn't in love with you and doesn't want to fox the relationship.

I would say leave and work out the detail once he knows you are serious.

Life is too short .

My impression is that he knows that he is being cruel and hurting you and is somehow thriving off the attention of you being hurt as trying to repair things. I think that there's only so much you can do before calling it a day. It doesn't sound like there's much good left in the marriage. I don't mean that to sound grim because actually it isn't - you sound like a wonderful and kind person wth a lot to give, and I think you could find a partner you could find fulfilment with. Fwiw, however good he is with the kids, it's not good for them to see their parents this way. Honestly I'd start considering the practicalities of a split.

myownprivateidaho are you serious about what you have said. I completely understand where her partner is coming from because I am a SAHM. Advising her to find someone else is not the answer how many men would be a SAHSD and would she trust a strange man to look after her children while she went to work. For a relationship to work you have to think about the other person's feelings and mental health not just your own.

What you haven't said so far OP is whether how he is being now is different to how he was when you were first together. I know we all change a bit but in terms of affection and sex drive, was he ever physically affectionate and wanting to be intimate as often as you wished it. My DH does not ever hug or kiss me uninitiated outside of the bedroom which does frustrate me but he was never any different. In 14 years married he has maybe said he loves me a handful of times, but he expresses it in other ways by bringing me a freshly ground coffee every morning etc. I think if he has changed alot then you have something to work with as there will be reasons for the change which you can explore, but if he has always had a lower libido than you and not been particularly expressive emotionally then you are unlikely to change that.

I don't think op is coming back. It's been days. I believe it was a name change and she's disappeared into the ether.

For a relationship to work you have to think about the other person's feelings and mental health not just your own.
This.

janecc - oh dear, that's a shame :(

Yes, violet it is. Shame as since she posted, she's had some decent advice.

I'm still here and still reading. And yes, I had brilliant advice and I am really grateful for everyone who took the time to give it.

Janecc thank you for your long post. It wasn't exactly pleasant to read, but I am glad you took the time - I think you might have moved me closer to understanding what DH might be thinking or feeling. I don't know because he still isn't really talking to me that much - but it makes sense - I can see the logic in it. Thank you.

I think you're right, too, that I am an overthinker. I guess I feel like I am out in the world, interacting, and doing things, then I come home and I am alone - in an emotional vacuum and yes - I think about it. Too much, perhaps. It probably doesn't do me much good.

For those of you who are SAHPs and have talked to me about your experiences: thank you. I appreciate that. I know there's been a bit of me that's been thinking of all the cool stuff I would do if I had that time alone in the day, but now I understand it isn't just as simple as that.

As for the suggestion that he's being cruel, or the might be something else going on? I don't know. I know he knowingly does stuff that hurts me. I know it wasn't always like this - he's always been pretty shy, but he used to leave me in no doubt that he wanted me. Now, I genuinely do not know why he is here - other than for the kids, and my pay cheque.

Things haven't changed a great deal. He's just started this course. I can see he's incredibly anxious about it - he's stressed, snappy and exhausted. He's come home a couple of times and been very very nasty to me - saying (pretty much out of the blue) that people just don't want to be in the same room as me. Later on, he's actually spoken about his difficulties in making small talk, or getting to know people - and I wonder (perhaps overthinking?) if he's really worried that people don't want to be in the same room as him.

He's sleeping now. I'm sitting up here sad again.

I don't think I can leave him. He'd get the kids, of course, and I'd be sitting alone in a bedsit working to support him and them, and wouldn't see them as much as I want to. I have stopped mentioning sex or even asking him for much of anything. I asked him to come with me to counselling in June, and he point blank refused.

I think what I need to do now is find a way to live with this - to stop feeling so hurt and bruised. To realise his coldness is his choice, and doesn't mean that I am not lovable. I don't want to let it damage my self esteem. I don't want to hurt him but I can't be chasing him any more either.

Hi OP. Really sorry things are still so tough. Did you go to counselling on your own in the end? Any luck adjusting the bed/bath/dinner routine? Sorry for all the questions, just trying to see if there's been anything you could take a positive from .

Yes, I changed things up a bit. I get up early three times in the week and put something in the slow cooker. I do the big cook on Sundays and all clear up. We've also started eating together every night. It's nice: the kids really like it. He's friendly and cordial to me, engages mainly with the kids, then hides himself away and avoids me once they are in bed.

I did see a counsellor: only four times. We spoke about my choices - about not being able to control him or change him, only myself. About what I could live with, and how much living with my kids was worth to me. It was pretty fucking depressing.

One insight I took away from this thread and the counselling was that his behaviour might have nothing to do with me at all - he might be depressed, something terrible might have happened to him, he might have secret woman or substance problem - it might not be what it looks like - that he doesn't like me. That sort of helped.