To refuse to speak to health visitor..

[Vickyyyy]

I know this is a controversial subject to begin with but I am prepared to be flamed if it happens

I suffer health issues. I am in a massive amount of pain a lot of the time, for hours and hours at a time. I am on strong pain meds to help but even the likes of oxycodone don't take it away completely. I had an operation a few months back to try and fix this pain and unfortunately the operation went wrong leaving me in more pain than ever before. I do struggle and am prepared to admit this. I can push myself to do things through the pain..doing so make me a LOT more ill later in the day though. My partner is pretty much my fulltime carer right now. The pain is at its worst on a nighttime, especially if I have pushed myself through the day, and it is as of yet undiagnosed, though my physio appointments start next month which should hopefully shine a bit of light on what the actual issue is...Anyway...

Last week, the health visitor appeared out of nowhere, as she always does, no phonecall to say she is coming or anything...and usually around 9/10am when sometimes I am still sorting kids breakfast, bath, dressed routine. Seemingly no reason for visit except for weighing (nearly) 2 year old. Fine. 10 mins and she goes. Everything seems fine. Asks where Dh is, I explain that his mother has taken ill and he is helping her in her home for a few hours.

The next day another unarranged visit. Kids have just went off it, sitting room looks like a bomb has hit it as every toy is on the floor. Yes, maybe I should have better control of my kids and make them sit quietly, but I will NEVER be that mum. I prefer them to have fun, they don't behave like this out of the house, and really, what harm does it do if they go wild for an hour or so? Anyway, health visitor comes in and immediately starts ranting about 'home conditions' that she noticed on her visit the day before. When pressed, it seems the issue was a knife on the kitchen bench, medication on the bench and another bench that had a tea stain on it. And some rubbish outside. I agree there should not have been a knife (was used for cutting up fruit..I don't like 2 year old having whole pears and such so I cut them) or medication (had taken it an hour or so prior to visit, was not my strong medication but I guess thats not the point) out on the bench...but the kids don't go in the kitchen alone so I don't see it as a massive issue or anything. The rubbish..I am awaiting the council collection of, its things like our old cot and cooker (replaced recently) and packaging that the new ones came in. Despite paying 20 quid for collection, apparently the first available date for pickup is 27th may...

So, this health visitor proceeds to spend half an hour telling me pretty much how useless I am. I have gone over what she said and no I am not overreacting. 'You are not the only person with 2 young kids' 'other people manage to watch toddlers and clean at the same time, why can't you' and such. This is after she already knows my health issues make a lot of things a huge problem for me at the moment. Told me Dh should not be spending so much time with his (ill) mother if I need help at home and its 'clear' I am not coping with the kids when hes not here. This horrific visit ended on the note of her saying if I don't follow her checklist exactly, she may have to call child protection! For the sake of a bit of mess..really? I will always favour letting the kids have fun over obsessive cleaning. I will always favour actually playing with the kids over doing a few dishes right now that could be left until the kdis are asleep...is this..unusual? I always thought this would be how most saw things.

So I was slightly hysterical at this point but trying to keep it together so as not to scare the kids. I told DH when he returned home and he said that he would deal with it next time she comes. But I don't want to see her at all anymore. I have seen a very cruel side of her. I am not proposing cutting off contact with the kids, as hubby is willing to deal with further 'appointments' (and he says there will be appointments, not unannounced visits as it has been for months). I just don't want to be there when she is. I am worried I may get a 'black mark' and be marked as a problem or something due to me unwillingness to be made to feel like dirt on the bottom of someones shoe. I don't know what I expect out of this thread tbh..its just good to get it all out. I don't understand whats gone wrong, she has been lovely at all other visits (though hubby was there for others, last week he spent a lot of time with him mother who is ill). I don't know if she was just having a bad day, if she really does think I am a shit mum, if she is bullying me for fun or something..if shes trying to motivate me top get better, which would be lovely if it was that easy...or what

(Checklist is things like clean kitchen completely. Get rid of rubbish outside and that, easy to follow and already done but thats not the point.)

Look at the high profile cases that lead to children dying, those mothers were also insistent that there were no issues, no need for hv or Sw to call that these people were 'interfering' equally the professionals in these cases were then lambasted for not pushing harder to see these children. They can't win!

The overwhelming majority of SCR's feature children who had significant contact with professionals

Yes, needs I noticed that too. Although I'm sure that HVs do pick up on a lot of abuse, their involvement is by no means an indication that abuse will be noticed - even dreadful abuse. There also seems to be a fudging of their role in this respect - surely they are there to do health screening and pass on any expert information that a new parent may ask for? In the UK, as far as I'm aware, there is an assumption that parents are responsible for their children and do not need to be checked up on unless there is clear evidence to the contrary. Going around collecting evidence to the contrary runs counter to the assumption that parents do not need to be checked up on. Consequently, if HVs have a 'safeguarding' role it cannot really be one that has been approved and agreed democratically and legally. Which is presumably why it cannot be obligatory and why HVs are often misleading about this. Any safeguarding that can be refused by a potential abuser is a pretty crap premise anyway.

OK Sock, I agree with you. Let me set the scene. 20 plus years on I still remember it with clarity it was so awful.

Baby was 10 days old when I was diagnosed with mastitis because the MW missed the symptoms. They decided to miss a day - during that day I developed "flu". Very unwell I phoned the MW midwife number and explained I was scared the baby might catch it. "midwife here" told me there was nothing to worry about as I was breastfeeding and would have passed antibodies to my baby. Became increasingly unwell and phoned again early evening. Spoke to a midwife who said it was mastitis and I needed antibiotics urgently and to phone Gp who would deal with this sort of emergency. GP receptionist told me off because the Drs had been working since the morning, ghe surgery was closing and to ring the emergency Dr.

At about 8.45 a locum turned up and told me that no baby needed more than ten mins on each side every four hours. lso that I. needed antibiotics urgently. The nearest chemist was five miles across London and shut in 45 minutes. My mother booked a minicab. Good job we had £30 for the return journey in 1995.

Following day the midwife arrived and chatted excuses. I discharged myself and went yo emergency apt at GP who told me chummily to get the booby out. Informed him I was disappointed in the lack of service and would not be dealing with mws again.

Discharged myself from mws. Following morning at 8.&5 received a letter from hv telling me she was coming at 9. Didn't have time to get dressed or geed the baby do waited with my little w in the baby's mouth and my nightie riding up my legs until 9.20 when she sauntered up yo the front door. Not sure why she was late for the first appointment.

She made excuses about the mws and blamed my lack of care on resources and the Tory Gov who were destroying the NHS. She did not have the basic courtesy to apologise for being late. She could not explain her role. She was incapable of disseminating the results of any evidence based research about child development or care. She could however espouse her political views and comment about my clean, tidy home.

I had significant problems with the professionals. They were totally unable to provide an acceptable standard of care. Can someone in the business perhaps explain to me why not engaging with something so unacceptable should ever be a red flag.

The HV's boss had the cheek to intimate the service I got was off pat because it was Christmas. When it went completely pear shaped it was after the NY and the rest of the country was working very well.

And after those early problems the little delight on the second visit told me that breastfeeding mothers put their babies first; bottle feeding mothers pit themselves first. So I ploughed on through two mir bouts of mastitiis until I developed a breast abscess and still ploughed on with a tube over my shoulder draining puss trying not to be inadequate. And then the pnd started. Perhaps if the hv had had half a brain cell it might have been prevented.

10,000 hvs on £30-£40k. That's a huge amount of money for an ailing nhs to spend on something that wasn't and isn't fit for service. When my first was born we sete funding 20,000 of them. At least less is being spent on it in 2016. Hopefully in 2036 it will no longer exist and the damage this service creates will have ceased.

Honestly, bow can something so poor with so little positive impact realistically co tinue to be funded. If I had needed a service I could have paid less tax, bought more books and paid for a Cpl of private consultations with experienced and fully qualified paediatricians. If they think there's a problem they have to refer to a Dr anyeY and nine gomes out of ten the problem is beyond their ken anyway.

And I'm not apologising because more than 20 years on the inadequacy of it still resonates and I suspect there's been little improvement.

Apologies for typos - have been on phone. The outage of hvs, social workers has made me rather cross.

The overwhelming majority of SCR's feature children who had significant contact with professionals

Well that is hardly surprising is it? The fact that most children who die from abuse have had contact with safeguarding services is reassuring because it means that we are, on the whole, successfully identifying high risk children. What we are not doing in all cases is keeping them safe from harm. We can and should do better, but we will never protect all children because safeguarding is fucking hard and a totally thankless task - as this thread shows.

I refused all hvs after one very rude one. Didn't have any further issues. Told GP not to send them as I'd see him if I'd any issues. Fortunately all my dcs had no issues.

shiney even now I feel I needed safeguarding from embedded incompetence within the services who are supposed to safeguard. I think they'd have more success if the so called professionals working for them were amoeba plus. And if they want to engage trust were capable of handling the public with a little more respect.

My dc did have some issues Jane. Like a y se sible mother I ensured those issues were referred to professionals with the clout to deal with the issues. You know ENT consultant, general surgeon, respiratory specialist. My hv whimpered that she didn t have info about immunisation, bf, allergies, etc., a d would have to ask an expert. Why visit and waste my time then?

I think if you are a reasonably competent adult most hvs are a waste of space.
I agree with beau that they don't necessarily have the current info, so I don't understand their purpose.

I'm allways at these threads, I have a son of 21 months and have never seen the same health visitor twice and have only seen one about 3 times my ds has complex medical problems and all hv have ever said is speak to your consultant even when my ds was meant to have district nurses coming in daily and the hospital had messed up the refferal and I had to find out who my hv was and ring them they where not intrested in helping me.
Allways find it amazing they actually keep in touch with people at all they've just never been intrested.

IMO most hvs are a complete waste of time. Ok there is likely to be the odd good one ( statistically at least) somewhere but I didn't find them!

I'm sorry those of you who had bad experiences did so but hv do actually do a good job mostly and are often the first person to spot illness/development issues/neglect/abuse.

Baconymum so why can't hvs actually explain their role, their rights such as they aren't actually, and leave new mothers feeling more respected? Serious question.

Do you not agree that if there were more honesty and transparency hvs could be a lot more effective.

I don't understand why most averagely intelligent women need an hv to spot illness or development issues. In fact hvs minimised issues for most families I know and fobbed people off. Oh, he's just a late developer "no he's not, he's dyspraxic. "No need to worry het about ASD, lots of children are like that before school. Oh, glue ear resolves and children catch up by the time they go to the juniors. No, child needs grommets and the year before they go to the juniors they take their prep school exams so glue ear can have a massive impact on their overall education.

Happily all cases fully assessed and all professional interventions in place because the parents had their children referred to specialists through their GPs. In each case however had to pay for prompt assessments.

The hv service is not in my experience designed ensure optimum support to ensure ALL children maximise their potential. It's a one size fits all service that should be optional. Actually it IS optional so why isn't that transparent.

I just don't understand why any mother would take her child to an hv clinic to discuss concerns about her child's health or development when she can make a mutually convenient appointment with the family doctor and be referred directly to the appropriate clinical specialist. IME if hv's can't answer questions about the basics like breastfeeding ir immunisation or the scope of their role, then they cannot possibly have the expertise to advise me about the health or development of my child and it is frankly an insult for anybody to stipulate any woman has to defer to the judgement of an hv. A GP can do things I can't, a lactation consultant knows about breastfeeding, a specialist child psychologist can diagnose asd. I simply could not understand and still don't understand what the hv service brings to the table in the context if the resources required to run the service.

In my opinion those resources would be better aimed at supporting those at risk, identified antenatally by midwives or GPs and there needs to be more investment in screening programmes (eyes, ears and child dentistry) and specialist intervention. If children are obese at 5 and rotten toothed, why is that if 10,000 hvs are doing such a good job in relation to health education and the under fives? Important point I think.

In fact significant number of SCRs feature disguised compliance, which is not the same as purposeful contact with professionals.

My ds is 21. . I still think the quality, cost and rationale of the hv service is scandalous.

I am a health visitor . I love my job .
Beau , I wouldnt know where to start with your posts - so much negativity and so badly informed. Scandalous .
Every profession has its good and bad . Health visiting included. If you feel so strongly perhaps become a lay member of your Local health forum. Although you may have to update your information to reflect more current health visiting programmes first .
For what it's worth , I could answer all your questions as could my colleagues .
The area I work in is one of the most deprived in the UK . Joint working with children centres, GP's, and a host of other professional has seen many positives for families and more children .

*The fact that most children who die from abuse have had contact with safeguarding services is reassuring because it means that we are, on the whole, successfully identifying high risk children.

What utter bollocks.

HVs are involved with most children. Your point would only make sense if HVs were only supposed to be involved with children who were at risk. Then, I agree, we could say, 'At least they found the right child, even if they were bloody useless at doing anything to save its life'. But the fact that HVs are involved with children who are abused says nothing except (a) those particular parents didn't choose to opt out of the service and (b) HVs failed miserably in their role.

Only badly informed from the real life experiences I have encountered though. If you can answer all the questions, please be my guest. Would you like me to go through and list them. It's a great pity my HV and her boss could not answer my questions: the simplest being "what is the role of the HV". The answer: "to make sure you talk to your baby enough for him to develop speech". Was that meant to be helpful do you think? I did not get a definition or confirmation that the service was mandatory until I complained formally to the CEO of what was then the trust. For what it's worth I did become for many years a lay director of the Trust. They did make some improvements such as no visits before 10am, no new baby visits without a proper appointment, HV to attend an antenatal class at all local hospitals, appointment of properly qualified lactation counsellor to train them to stop them from spouting so much nonsense.

The problem is my love, (sorry HV called me that when visiting so I hope you don't mind) that the service has not improved throughout the country and overall in the intervening 20 years. The posts on parenting forums serve to demonstrate that.

Again . Read up , perhaps the Healthy Child Programme or Health visitor implementation Plan could be basic starters.

I am truly sorry you had a bad experience, let this forum be your vent , but
I know that myself and other colleagues make real differences to a lot of families who perhaps don't have your obvious in depth awareness of supporting professionals and the referral process.
Our service locally is transparent and open to suggestion / change , it is by no means perfect .

goneto safeguarding services do not just refer to services you can opt out of.
Surburban disguised compliance is something that features very heavily in most decent training.

For many people a HV can be a valuble positive service for others it won't be. Usually the ones where it won't be will struggle to even get hold of one because if you are universal services it can be quite hard after a one off visit.
Loads of areas even do the various age checks via the post now

Sorry, but just to put in a good word for HVs. I have just had DC2, breastfed both times, in stable relationship, organised, on top of things etc. Listened politely to v young HV who came round who taught me how to suck eggs as they do.
However, she picked up I was still in quite a lot of pain 4 weeks post vaginal birth. Suggested I go to GP. Which I didn't cos I just thought I should man up. I moved out of area the next week, she phoned 3 times over the next 2 weeks, once I'd left the area (which she knew and had referred me on), to see if the pain had gone. Nagged me to go to GP. On the last call my DP was listening and bullied me into going. GP sent me straight to hospital with suspected retained placenta. She was right....

Beau - you may not think the service has improved but I hope the suicidal mum who I spent three hours with yesterday would beg to differ.

Beau I agree you're letting your own experience of one authorities poor service to colour your view of a service that does a good job throughout the country. Most hv I've met could answer your queries, or if not would find out or refer a mother onto someone more suitable. That's one of their jobs, signposting.

In addition your answer to the problem being mothers go to Gp's every time they had a query is putting more pressure unnecessarily on a service that's already under immense pressure. Gp's are far from the only resource in the community, there's lactation consultants, pharmacists, practice nurses etc

Last week includes :
3 referrals to our excellent breastfeeding support service , (very lucky to have )
2 listening visits , supporting mums with pnd, whilst the wellbeing referral starts.
2 new birth visits - both first time young mums , both babies jaundiced ( which we now monitor following local protocol ) 1 with a cleft lip / palate .
1 initial case conference - involving family experiencing d/v
1 drop in clinic ( about 15 mums and babies in 2 hours - )
2 salt referrals following ages and stages assessments and an Team
Around the family meeting .
Chasing up a transfer in who has Dna 2 visits .
I love my job !

Disguised compliance featured heavily in my training too sock, but it can take a while to recognise it in a family you've just started working with.