To refuse to speak to health visitor..

[Vickyyyy]

I know this is a controversial subject to begin with but I am prepared to be flamed if it happens

I suffer health issues. I am in a massive amount of pain a lot of the time, for hours and hours at a time. I am on strong pain meds to help but even the likes of oxycodone don't take it away completely. I had an operation a few months back to try and fix this pain and unfortunately the operation went wrong leaving me in more pain than ever before. I do struggle and am prepared to admit this. I can push myself to do things through the pain..doing so make me a LOT more ill later in the day though. My partner is pretty much my fulltime carer right now. The pain is at its worst on a nighttime, especially if I have pushed myself through the day, and it is as of yet undiagnosed, though my physio appointments start next month which should hopefully shine a bit of light on what the actual issue is...Anyway...

Last week, the health visitor appeared out of nowhere, as she always does, no phonecall to say she is coming or anything...and usually around 9/10am when sometimes I am still sorting kids breakfast, bath, dressed routine. Seemingly no reason for visit except for weighing (nearly) 2 year old. Fine. 10 mins and she goes. Everything seems fine. Asks where Dh is, I explain that his mother has taken ill and he is helping her in her home for a few hours.

The next day another unarranged visit. Kids have just went off it, sitting room looks like a bomb has hit it as every toy is on the floor. Yes, maybe I should have better control of my kids and make them sit quietly, but I will NEVER be that mum. I prefer them to have fun, they don't behave like this out of the house, and really, what harm does it do if they go wild for an hour or so? Anyway, health visitor comes in and immediately starts ranting about 'home conditions' that she noticed on her visit the day before. When pressed, it seems the issue was a knife on the kitchen bench, medication on the bench and another bench that had a tea stain on it. And some rubbish outside. I agree there should not have been a knife (was used for cutting up fruit..I don't like 2 year old having whole pears and such so I cut them) or medication (had taken it an hour or so prior to visit, was not my strong medication but I guess thats not the point) out on the bench...but the kids don't go in the kitchen alone so I don't see it as a massive issue or anything. The rubbish..I am awaiting the council collection of, its things like our old cot and cooker (replaced recently) and packaging that the new ones came in. Despite paying 20 quid for collection, apparently the first available date for pickup is 27th may...

So, this health visitor proceeds to spend half an hour telling me pretty much how useless I am. I have gone over what she said and no I am not overreacting. 'You are not the only person with 2 young kids' 'other people manage to watch toddlers and clean at the same time, why can't you' and such. This is after she already knows my health issues make a lot of things a huge problem for me at the moment. Told me Dh should not be spending so much time with his (ill) mother if I need help at home and its 'clear' I am not coping with the kids when hes not here. This horrific visit ended on the note of her saying if I don't follow her checklist exactly, she may have to call child protection! For the sake of a bit of mess..really? I will always favour letting the kids have fun over obsessive cleaning. I will always favour actually playing with the kids over doing a few dishes right now that could be left until the kdis are asleep...is this..unusual? I always thought this would be how most saw things.

So I was slightly hysterical at this point but trying to keep it together so as not to scare the kids. I told DH when he returned home and he said that he would deal with it next time she comes. But I don't want to see her at all anymore. I have seen a very cruel side of her. I am not proposing cutting off contact with the kids, as hubby is willing to deal with further 'appointments' (and he says there will be appointments, not unannounced visits as it has been for months). I just don't want to be there when she is. I am worried I may get a 'black mark' and be marked as a problem or something due to me unwillingness to be made to feel like dirt on the bottom of someones shoe. I don't know what I expect out of this thread tbh..its just good to get it all out. I don't understand whats gone wrong, she has been lovely at all other visits (though hubby was there for others, last week he spent a lot of time with him mother who is ill). I don't know if she was just having a bad day, if she really does think I am a shit mum, if she is bullying me for fun or something..if shes trying to motivate me top get better, which would be lovely if it was that easy...or what

(Checklist is things like clean kitchen completely. Get rid of rubbish outside and that, easy to follow and already done but thats not the point.)

Is there a clinic you can go to, so cutting out the need for home visits at all? You should call your local service and find out. Tell them you will attend the clinic if and when. Then take someone with you. With regards to your home, it sounds very similar to mine. The living room looks like a toy factory, I have x amounts of washing in all stages (before, after, ironing) all over the place and I only do the washing up once a day, at night when all is quiet. Oh and my back garden is a forest! You really don't have anything to worry about.

Gardenbirds- OP stated it wasn't the oxycodone left out but a milder tablet, also admitted that wasn't the point. Also I think when she said 'bench', she was referring to the kitchen counter, not a low seat. Just to clarify.

Sounds like maybe she was following up some concerns expressed from somewhere? Have your little ones been to a&e recently? Do they go to nursery? Could a neighbour of reported the mess outside/have heard shouting etc?
We get slagged off all the time but we are duty bound to ensure the health and wellbeing of the under fives. The person who said a safeguarding referral doesn't help safeguard children is just being totally naive- what do you suggest? Wait until a child is seriously harmed before ensuring the safety of the child?

I also don't feel like we are getting the full story here

Here's a retro idea.

Clean the kitchen.

Problem solved.

I knew someone many years ago who left her tablets within her 3yo DD reach. That beautiful little girl died.

Knives should never ever be left within reach of small children, not even for a minute.

Your hv was wrong in how she spoke to you but not in what she said.
Hopefully now you'll never do that again

The HV has to be upfront with her
Concerns and she has to be upfront with what will happen if there is no improvement. She is not 'threatening with SS'

OP I think you are getting to hung up on her manner and 'friendship', when actually you should be concentrating on why she has concerns. These other things are often a good distraction and way of pushing aside what really matters. Her duty is towards your children, not your feelings.

"HVs are damned if they do, and damned if they don't by a large proportion of MNetters. The majority are just trying to do the best they can"

This ^^
I really dislike the way that health visitors are viewed as interfering busybodies on here. They are just doing their job making sure that babies and small children are being cared for properly.

I agree that some of them need to improve the way that they interact with parents, but I am extremely grateful that I had such a good health visitor.

If you refuse the HV, failing to work with professionals will be added to the list of concerns. I'm a foster Carer, every parent whose child comes into care will minimise the poor home conditions, and the photos will show an entirely different story :(
I'm not saying this is what is going on for you, and no HV is going to refer in the basis of toys, unless they are all filthy and broken, but maybe look around again when you are feeling less upset and see if there are any valid concerns.
My house is strewn with toys, but this doesn't stop it being clean and safe - it's not either or. Sometimes a few storage boxes can help make things feel a bit more in control.
Have you asked about Homestart? A Homestart worker might really be able to help with your situation.

You do have to keep engaged with the hv, IMO.

She may be stepping up the monitoring since you are on strong opiates and antihistamines, which are both drowsy causing.

You can't really win. I've been told they're taught to look out for things being overly clean as well as a sign of things being wrong. So if your house was pristine she might have issues with that too...

The toys are completely normal and nobody's kitchen (when they have young children at least) is perfectly clean all of the time, especially not at that time. She was 100% nitpicking, it's hardly like SS would have any interest in a snapshot of your family life that involved a chopping knife and medication left out on the kitchen worktop! Come off it.

Personally I'd call the HV team, whoever is in charge and tell them how uncomfortable she made you feel. Don't stand for it. She's in your home making you feel like shit. Disgusting.

I'm sorry you have been made to feel like this but am a bit confused by the health visitor visits generally. I have 3 children and with my first two, the hv came out just after they were born and then said they'd be at the end of the phone if I needed them. My 3rd is in a new area. they came out to do checks but always by appointment. I've met her twice and my baby is 7 months old. As others have said a hv would only refer to a speech therapist, not do on going progress checks. My older two were signed off hv at their two year check I think so she has no reason at all to be coming to your house at all. I'm afraid to say it sounds like your hv has been gaining evidence against you for some time by repeatedly turning up, especially unannounced. She clearly has some concerns she isn't disclosing to you.
If everything is as you say then stay calm and don't worry as you have nothing to hide. I would co operate but request that she brings someone else and you make sure you don't see her alone.

Agree with the pp who said about some of us seeing the heartbreaking results of meds being left out 'just the once' in a place 'the kids can't reach'. And cyclizine is not a mild medicine particularly where very young children are concerned.

I requested a change from my first hv because she was useless! She was reliant on 1 textbook, had no kids herself, no experience with kids prior to training and could never answer my queries without checking with 'the book' or someone else. My next was excellent, mum to 5 very experienced and a great help. And yes she had to raise concerns with me regarding my place being TOO clean and tidy (early signs of my ocd), but it can often be a sign of pnd (avoiding spending time with baby, perfectionist anxieties), or domestic abuse (house not 'allowed' to be untidy).

In addition to what she raised on this occasion there's the speech delay, and the fact she's noted odd behaviour in terms of a child being too 'happy' and overly tactile. In addition to this being a possible sign of abuse (not that I'm accusing anyone of that but she has to consider the possibility), she will be placing that against normal developmental milestones for that child's age plus it can be a symptom of some conditions including a few learning difficulties. She's looking out for your kids.

Work with her, by all means ask her to consider how she communicates, but honestly they are so busy and short-staffed in community healthcare for her to visit 2 days in a row does suggest she has concerns.

There may be no need for her concern but she can't know that yet so she is rightly monitoring and assessing.

To the pp who didn't see the meds being out as being a big issue, I'm the opposite I'm shocked what people don't understand is dangerous, even vitamins and some herbal remedies can be dangerous.

I agree there should not have been a knife ... or medication (had taken it an hour or so prior to visit, was not my strong medication but I guess thats not the point) out on the bench...I don't see it as a massive issue

those were the only things she could come up with.

Its just upsetting to even have it brought up for the sake of (what I view as..) little things.

it was cyclizine that was on the bench. I take it to stop myself feeling sick after my painkillers. I did try to explain this at the time but I didn't get much chance to talk tbh. I know it makes little difference WHAT drugs they were in actuality, but I think there is a slightly difference between antisickness meds and morphine

I've read the thread carefully, and i see you have acknowledged that the bottom line is that the meds and knife should not have been left out. However, at the same time i see a fair amount of minimalism about it in your posts too. I imaging that when the health visitor was there and you were upset and angry there would have been a lot more. This wouldn't have helped your case at all. Proper acknowledgement of these issues when she bought them up would have probably bought the level of confrontation right down.

As others have said working with her not against her on this is the way forward

rosa

Most areas have service banding, most people are universal it sounds like the op is universal plus or potentially universal partnership plus meaning she gets additional visits due to additional needs

But confused why you are still getting HVE visits. Last time I had one was at about 4 months (then went to clinic for scheduled check ups) presumably they have some concerns. No tablets or knives should be within a small child's reach. I suspect we haven't got full story. If I was doing something without realising that put my dc in danger I'd be glad someone pointed it out

I don't think we're getting the full story to be honest. The constant unannounced visits aren't really normal even for a child with a speech delay..
You're within your rights to decline further visits but don't be surprised when she makes a safeguarding referral. It would be easier to just ensure the house is safe.

The underlying issue exists that I encountered mire than 20 years ago. There is no clarity about the role and responsibilities of the HV and there us no clear outline of what parents can expect or sharing of the HVs assessment in relation to perceived and/or evidenced risk and what parent(s) can or should expect as a result.

My HV used the lack of clarity as a power kick and it took a formal complaint to the CEO, because the HVs boss was as bad if not worse, to establish clarity about their role and the fact that I had no o ligation whatsoever to deal with them.

The system desperately needs to be reformed because it remains unfit for purpose. I challenged it and cleared that I never had to deal with the,service again. I don't feel I missed out at all. If I needed advice I saw a doctor. I didn't need to have my children weighed or seek advice about weaning or teething or sleeping. Not because there were no problems but even before the internet that advice was available from books written by paediatricians and others far better qualified to pass on well researched information than the average health visitor. --I met two of them; one was inexperienced and incompetent, the other was grubby and incompetent. Hell would freeze over before I would sit in a baby clinic without an appointment alongside sick people at the doctors for upwards of an hour to see a health visitor to get the baby weighed. Awful experience and not one I was prepared to be instructed to engage with.

But the only thing that gave me the confidence to complain was that my baby was planned, loved, wanted and was brought home to a loving home and family.

Can I just finish with the fact that my house was always spotless, I was/am always fairly immaculate. It has to do with being clean and having high standards and in my world and my family's,world and the world if my friends it I normal with a capital N, not a signifier of underlying ill health or abuse. I think mine might have inferred I shouldn't have had my make up on - absolutely none of her business.

My understanding is that health and social care workers are not supposed to do unannounced visits. The only exception is when children are on a CP plan and, even then, they can't enter without the parent's permission although it would be seen as a huge red flag if the parents refused entry.
Obviously the tablets and knife are a concern but you've accepted that.
I liaise with quite a few HVs in my job- a lot of them are very good but there are some that are awful and a handful that are positively vindictive and have really upset some of my patients who are extremely vulnerable.
I would be inclined to let your DH deal with her from now on. That way, you're still agreeing to your DCs having a service but you don't have to deal with her.
From what you've said, it doesn't sound like a situation SS would be remotely interested in unless it was to offer more support.

Two things i'd advise -

1. Do the stuff on the list. Seriously, dont even argue about it, its things that you acknowledge yourself need doing.
2. Self refer yourself to adult services so they can give your situation a once over from the disability angle. If you are being threatened with ss for no reason, it will take the sting out of the hvs tail if you refer yourself before she has chance to.

And this is why I decline visits from the HV. I have no desire to open my home to nosy, one size fits all questionnaires when I know there is no reason to be concerned about my kids. They're your children. You don't have to let them in. Sounds like her visit had had a very unhelpful impact and your children are fine. Ignore!

OP since she has been supportive in the past I'm with those who say you should try and work with her. But I don't think that means just accepting the way she treated you.

I would be inclined at her next visit, to lay out how you are prepared to work with her. Go through the list she gave you and decide what you believe is reasonable. Then when she next comes, before she starts on her agenda, sit her down and tell her, in a friendly but firm way, that you did not appreciate her manner at the last visit and if she isn't prepared to treat you as a partner in this she will need to pass you on to a different health visitor because you cannot see yourself working with someone who isn't prepared to treat you respectfully. Let her know you appreciate her expertise in the areas you do appreciate her expertise, but that when it comes to more general style of parenting issues and whether there are tea stains on the counter you are not prepared to be dictated to. If she brings up social services tell her she is perfectly at liberty to waste their time, you are confident that if they visit they will appreciate that their intervention is not needed. Let her know how she can support you and what has been useful in the past. Go over the list she gave you and ask her what her concerns are about each item and tell her where her values are not appreciate (e.g. The tea stain has no impact on your children, you aren't prepared to follow a set cleaning routine or to make the house tidy just for her, but you are interested in things that are dangerous and will take appropriate actions, like ensuring your children can't get in the kitchen without you) And if you really don't appreciate early morning visits, tell her not call before X am any more.

If you aren't good at confrontation, practice it with your DH before hand. Have him mirror different responses so you can get used to being verbally attacked. Work out set phrases to use that bring the conversation back to your agenda and to developing a working relationship with her you're happy with, also practice asking her to leave if you decide it isn't going to work. Unless you are prepared in the future to turn her away whenever your DH isn't there I think it really needs to be you that has this conversation, not your DH. Also, you have to be prepared to follow through if she isn't prepared to return to her more helpful mode. Brace yourself for an SS visit if you end up asking her to leave etc. And you might want to record the conversation so you can use it to make a complaint about her if she is unable to treat you respectfully, though hopefully she will realise it did no good to attack you the way she did and she will adjust her style and be more reasonable in how she tells you what her concerns actually are.

And this is why I decline visits from the HV. I have no desire to open my home to nosy, one size fits all questionnaires when I know there is no reason to be concerned about my kids.

Same here - I refused to make an appt for my 4-year-olds check up because I was too busy with work, there was not one single cause for concern, and the HVs I'd seen previously had been useless as best, and rude/incorrect at worst (appallingly inaccurate breastfeeding advice from one delightful individual). They were very reluctant to 'allow' me to refuse an appt, and initially told me that it was a legal requirement to see them. I challenged that and asked them which law I was breaking. They couldn't tell me, and backed down.

Isn't it awful that they try to make you think these visits are compulsory? And why do they bother giving advice at all when there's clearly no pool of professional best-practice-for-child-rearing knowledge that they're all drawing from, since their advice is so contradictory? They know no more than a home start volunteer. I was told by one HV to consider baby led weaning (she suggested it) and then told by the next HV, after I'd been doing BLW for a month, that it was OK on the side but spooned mush should form the bulk of weaning. That was the same midwife who said she didn't need to see the baby (?) But absolutely had to see my house... Never again!