"wouldn't you be embarrassed to PAY someone else clean up after you?"

[schrodcat]

Seething. SEETHING. I proposed getting a cleaner because I honestly think we're going to end up divorced if he doesn't start pulling his weight. He objected in the strongest possible terms and said "wouldn't you be embarrassed to pay someone else to clean up after you?".

But he is not embarrassed for me to do it, even when I got a weird dermatitis condition on my hand from the rubber gloves and my fingers kept bleeding. I am not kidding. I know that sounds Dickensian.

FFS.

Keyboard, the 'fuck off' post you mention was out of order, yes, (some posters acknowledged that) and has been deleted. It was ONE post, though, in a thread of nearly 150. Others have expressed themselves much more fairly and moderately.

I don't know where the 'hate' is you talk about, or the whining, bitching or hissing (and interesting choice of heavily gendered words there).

KeyboardMum I've written nothing my DH would be shocked at, indeed nothing he wouldn't wholeheartedly agree with.

The problem is the way KeyboardDad approached his post.

He came on effectively saying "dads work hard all day, so mums should be able to do some cleaning instead of sitting on the sofa".

If he'd come on saying "I don't have a baby yet, please can someone explain what looking after a baby involves, so I can judge how much cleaning it might be possible to get done" he'd have got a much more welcoming response.

He was rude; some MNers were rude back. That's life for you.

I think we can all assume that Mr Keyboard Dad is as sexist as we thought. I spot a bridge!

As far as the OP goes I read your post to my dh. We think you should just hire a cleaner. Don't do it in secret be open and if he complains tell him he can stop the cleaner WHEN he demonstrates his willingness to consistently take up his fair share of the domestic burden. Until then he shuts up or leaves. I am sorry but it sounds like you are married to an arse.

Oh, and good luck with the little one by the way

BTW, you can hire a cleaner to tidy up things. It's up to you and them what you contract them to do.
Cleaning
Ironing
Tidying up
Making beds
Cooking
DIY

I'd stepped away for a little while and was going to come back and assume that KeyboardDad did actually post with best intentions. I wasn't going to apologize; because whether he realised it or not he did mansplain. I was going to point out that there are certain situations that must be lived to be truly understood.

I've read many a book on childcare; including a lot of medical tomes; I've been involved in some form of childcare for 31 years now both in Healthcare settings and less formally . But I've never had children so while if asked I maybe able to give considered advice I would never presume that I knew exactly what it was like.

But I see that he now has a sock puppet.

Wow, the pitchforks are out and now you have lit the bloody torches! One bloke points out something totally valid, and you all take your pent-up-from-home rage out on him.

You must be new here; whats happened so far isn't even a mild warming; never mind a roasting...........Hang around for a parent and baby parking or a buggies vs wheelchair users thread, then you'll see the gloves come off.

There are actually plenty of men who post on here and give sometimes thoughtful and considered advice sometimes are thought provoking and sometimes very funny; in the main they don't feel the need to point out that they're a man.

Personally I don't have pent-up-from-home rage after all I'm not pend in my house; thats why I have a cleaner; someone both DP & I fully appreciate as they do a job that neither of us want to do (and one that he doesn't assume is my job or problem to solve) and to a standard that neither of us could.

What if your OHs and husbands came on mumsnet and read your whiny, bitchy posts full of so much hate well I haven't said anything nasty on here about him, and if I did feel the need to vent about him on here; he'd know as (1) I'd have said it to his face and (2) he not only knows my username but also my password........meh.

Despite the name of MUMSnet we get plenty of men posting, most are considerate, intelligent and non-sexist.

But if one comes on and is patronising, sexist and condescending, mners will treat accordingly.

As for what if any men in my life saw what I posted, frankly they'd realise I mostly hold back on here compared to how I am in real life! If any of my male relatives or friends expressed opinions in the way keyboarddad did they'd get a real roasting!

But if one comes on and is patronising, sexist and condescending, mners will treat accordingly.

It works for women too.

God, the flamings!

Why oh why oh why do some men think that when they are single and working they do housework but when they have a home and family they shouldn't? The SAHP is looking after the child. They both still need to do housework, because now there's more of it.

I had a non-sleeping baby who was BF. Which meant I got less than four hours sleep a night for a year. Then woken at least 2 times a night for another year. Up before 5am for three years. And she was, I think 'active' is the euphemism. Fuck the housework.

Thankfully my DH is hardworking, cleans and is an actual partner.

Totally agree about the ignorant mansplaining from someone who isn't even a father yet so can't possibly actually know what being a father (or mother) is like

FWIW: while ds was a brilliant sleeper from very young yes I know, we were very lucky , he was an extremely slow feeder. In the first few months, I would spend 1 hour out every 2 or 3 either breastfeeding or expressing And that's before I changed him, bathed him or played with him.

Fortunately I had a supportive dh and when he got home from work, he shared in the household work. Both of us needed "down" time - from work (whether paid-for or parenting) and from housework, so we took our turn.

Actually, I did have an argument with him later, once I was back f/t at work (and ironically, he was the one who'd taken voluntary redundancy and was at home studying and/or setting up a business, while ds was at a childminder f/t).

....very apposite, to the OP: I organised a cleaner (just once a fortnight). Lasted just a few weeks as I had to cancel her as he was so unhappy about the idea - couldn't see the difference between cleaning and tidying (whereas I saw it as a way to encourage both of us - and ds - to be tidy, so that the cleaner would clean finally at over 40 I understood why my mother had always made us tidy before the cleaner came ). As a result, 10+ years later, he still does most of the cleaning! (Even though I'm the one at home at the moment and he's the one working f/t ).

father's Day is coming up in June if you can wait that long.
Buy and wrap him all the cleaning materials he could want.

wouldn't you be embarrassed to pay someone else to clean up after you

How about some questions in return?

Aren't you embarrassed that someone else fixed the boiler/mended the roof/fitted the radiator/fixed or cleaned the car/fitted the windows/installed the phone/unblocked the drain/tiled the bathroom/fitted the locks/updated the electric sockets?

'It works for women too.

God, the flamings!'

Absolutely! If a woman came on a thread like this not yet a mother giving it

'Well how hard can it be? Your darling hubby out working hard and all you have to do is change a few nappies' they'd soon be put right!!

Yes - I've seen lots of posts from mothers-to-be saying "I don't intend to let my baby change my life" or similar - and they get ripped to shreds...

There's even been quite amusing threads along the 'I didn't have a clue before I was a mum' line.

My child will

Never Have a tantrum
Only be fed organic vegan homemade food
Sleep through the night from 3 months old etc

I know how to drive a car. I've read 5 books and watched lots of people do it.

I know how to ice a cake. I've read books and watched my mum do it.

I know how to have great sex. I've read 5 books and wanked a lot.

Some things are a little more 'hands-on' than others.

Some things are a little more 'hands-on' than others.

Love it Mrs TP!!!

The issue is, actually, less that the OP's H dislikes housework and is reluctant to do it. Housework is Not Fun.
It's that he is intent on making OP do it. Housework is, as I said, Not Fun, so anyone who can afford a cleaner should have one. (OP makes no mention of their household budget being too tight to pay a cleaner).
Men who object to paying a cleaner are deep-rooted misogynists. They consider domestic work to be the responsibility of the woman in the house, because they consider women to be domestic appliances.

'I think I am going to get a secret cleaner.'

Fuck that.

What SGB said.

But with a side of mansplaining and sock puppetry.

I am utterly shocked by how spiteful and miserable a lot of your comments are - even before my OH decided to play the devils advocate.

And I'm shocked that you think you your husband pointed out something completely valid but hey ho, ignorance is bliss.

Just to spell this out to you, it isn't simply about mansplaining, it's also nonparentsplaining. People who don't have kids who pontificate, from a position of complete lack of knowledge, about how to look after them and what they'll do when they have them, invariably get their arses handed to them on here. Do a search. It's usually women too. Basically, it's fine that you don't know shit (and really, you absolutely don't). None of us did when we were 10 weeks before due date of first child either. The problem comes when you insist not only on flaunting that ignorance, but lecturing despite it. Devil's advocate, my arse.

They consider domestic work to be the responsibility of the woman in the house, because they consider women to be domestic appliances.

Nailed it. Complete with shaming. 'Wouldn't you be embarrassed to pay someone to pick up after me you?' Does he want to explain about his view of equality and gender roles? -have you considered returning him to MiL for retraining?

KeyboardDad, may I just point out that coming onto a thread where someone is asking for help, advice and support, you actually do at least one of those. If you want to conduct thought experiments or ask for information then start a thread of your own, rather than derailing someone else's.

That is a genuine tip for an apparent newcomer to MN.

There's something wrong with my grammar up there, but I've just got back from work and can't be bothered to work it out until I've had gin.

Never mind re-training return to pil for full refund!!

I don't think we have enough information yet to condemn OP's DH as a misogynist who thinks his wife is nothing but a walking, talking Hoover. He doesn't pull his weight, which is shit. He's embarrassed to have a cleaner, which is frustrating, but not unusual. It's possible to read his question as 'Wouldn't you be embarrassed to pay someone to pick up after you? I would!'

I don't see where he's saying 'why should I pay someone to do your job?' - he seems more to be saying 'what's wrong with the house as it is?' He doesn't understand how much work OP is putting into cleaning, and he doesn't agree with her about the standards to which it should be kept clean. This is a problem - but one that can be discussed constructively between two people who share a house and want to do so more happily, rather than from entrenched positions of oppressor and oppressee.