"wouldn't you be embarrassed to PAY someone else clean up after you?"

[schrodcat]

Seething. SEETHING. I proposed getting a cleaner because I honestly think we're going to end up divorced if he doesn't start pulling his weight. He objected in the strongest possible terms and said "wouldn't you be embarrassed to pay someone else to clean up after you?".

But he is not embarrassed for me to do it, even when I got a weird dermatitis condition on my hand from the rubber gloves and my fingers kept bleeding. I am not kidding. I know that sounds Dickensian.

FFS.

Keyboard, you're well meaning but your posts do unfortunately come across in an irritating way like you know it all even though you have no experience - okay then.

The discussion is also nice, but, again, if somebody has the kind of relationship where they can discuss things in that way, they would do it. They wouldn't be on a talk forum looking for suggestions. It's not really difficult to work out that you should try and talk to your partner rather than just silently being annoyed with them.

As to your question about whether housework + childcare is equal to a job worked out of the home - it is just impossible to compare. They are both things with a massive margin of difference. You might as well ask "Is a job in a hospital equal to a job in an office in terms of workload?" Well- what job in a hospital? Surgeon? Receptionist? Cleaner? Porter? What kind of office? Busy London finance office or small independent insurance firm? Government or private? Commute? Etc. It's the same situation. Some jobs are harder work than others, some babies are harder work than others. Some houses are easier to keep clean. Some people have a personality which makes staying at home a wonderful dream, others have a personality which makes it a living hell (most somewhere in between, of course.) At home you can set your own pace, but at work you have at least some short periods where absolutely nothing is demanded of you. At home, you don't have to get dressed, but at work you have adult company. It's apples and oranges. It's valuable, of course, but home based work like housework and childcare spills over in a way that work specifically undertaken by one person doesn't really have the ability to.

If you have a healthy relationship then you should be able to trust that your partner is doing the best he/she can to contribute towards the family, whether that's by working for financial contributions, by keeping the house in order, by caring for children, or by doing small things which make their spouse's life easier. Likewise, if you're a decent person you'd be trying to do this and feeling guilty if you knew in yourself that you weren't doing your fair share. It's not a part of a healthy relationship to come home and make judgements about what your partner is or isn't doing to contribute, nor is it up to you to decide what is a fair share - no more than she would have the right to come to your workplace and demand that you work harder in X area that she has no experience of.

Of course if you genuinely feel like you're working harder and they are not then look at why - but to assume immediately that it's laziness is a huge red flag about the way that either you feel about your partner or the way that they treat you in general.

Oh yeah, the OP's DH is a bell end. I was just responding to 'cleaners are a luxury" - not always!

Er - mansplaining isn't sexist. It's a situation where:

1. A man

1. Explains something in an "It's so simple!" sense to women

1. In an area where those women/that woman can either be assumed to be competent OR has expressed/displayed that she is competent.

You've done all three. It's called mansplaining because it happens startlingly often from men to women.

LookJustCancelTheCheque I assumed that my writing style contributed to the feeling that I'm "mansplaining". Just trying to fit in!!!!! God you lot are mean.

LurcioAgain actually we're both here, because dad's have to be mum's sometimes too. At least I'm up front that I'm XY in my name. If you think only women get to be mums then I think you're wrong. If my LO gets a rash, say from being alergic to the dairy in formula milk (on the off chance that he doesn't take to nursing or my SO can't express enough), then I'm gonna be worried too and seek advice. I'm allowed to have emotions too: anxiety. So I'm here. Even though it's like being in enemy territory... still a lot of good information on here.

I know housework is a touchy subject, because I know most men are lazy ----ers when it comes to housework. Guess I just wanted you all to elaborate on what you do at home with a little one.

Worked...

FFs keyboarddad what the hell would your partner think if she saw what you wrote?!

You sound like my ex (who seemed to think and actually said once that I was sat at home doing bugger all - despite a bf colicky 4 month old!)

Your posts are misogynistic, patronising mansplaining! AND you've clearly not read the ops posts because my and pp's understanding is she has ALREADY discussed this with her partner several times and nothing has change!

Op can correct me if I'm wrong but it sounds like her partner doesn't so much as clear up after making a snack!

As for why a sahm shouldn't do ALL the housework that's because she's also

'Working' through the night - feeds, nappy changes, colic, teething, colds n coughs, fevers (especially after vaccinations), bugs, nightmares, separation anxiety...

'Working' with the baby during the day - feeding (if ff that also includes washing and sterilising bottles and making up feeds), nappy changes, comforting, stimulating baby, plus again dealing with teething, clinginess etc (try doing ANY housework with a baby that gets so worked up if you put them down that they make themselves sick. If you have a colicky baby or one with reflux issues this cannot be risked at all).

Frankly I was doing well if baby was calm and well cared for, dishes done and maybe one load of washing on before ex was home, and that was after being up since 5am! (Dd an early riser).

I was knackered!

Seriously get a clue quick before this baby is born or you'll have a very pissed off mum on your hands! Plus as pp said a higher chance of pushing her into PND!

I assumed that my writing style contributed to the feeling that I'm "mansplaining". Just trying to fit in!!!!!

I'm not sure I'm understanding, still. Are you saying everyone on here posts in the style of that post of yours? Is it a joke?

BishopBrennansArse I had a colleague whose cleaner once brought her kid around, who pooed on the floor, and she rubbed it further into the carpet, couldn't clean it out, and quit. Not always a luxury!!

BertieBotts thanks. Didn't mean to do that. What do you call it when a woman explains something to a man, like he has no clue, even though he has exactly the same ability to know something as the woman. Isn't that just womansplaining? "Children are hard work: you have to feed them, wind them, bathe them, dress them, watch them, nap them, feed them again, wind them again, change them X times, ..." -- no shit?? really?? never knew that in the 5 (bible length) books I've read in the past 7 months, or in the 10 years I spent with babies in the house growing up.

LookJustCancelTheCheque yes it was a joke

oops

Baconyum what if I told you...she's watching right now?

"Guess I just wanted you all to elaborate on what you do at home with a little one."

Why didn't you just ask then? Instead of making a tedious devil's advocate situation? (No issue with doing that - can be an interesting discussion tool - but it's irritating when it's done without warning that what's being entered into is a thought experiment and not a real situation that somebody is asking for help understanding or dealing with.)

FWIW, if you have the option, I would seriously consider taking some shared parental leave, even if it's just a month or two. Having the understanding of the others' perspective is apparently a game changer in terms of appreciating each other when you're married with small children. I can see that it might be - from reading threads on here about WOHMs with SAHDs I can appreciate that position much more, and that it's not as "easy" as it's sometimes easy to assume from the depths of your own tiredness and frustration. Truth is the early years are hard on everyone even when everyone is playing their part.

BertieBotts your long post makes complete sense. Didn't mean to appear that way, was just asking questions. I have some experience, obviously not as much as some, more than others. Somewhere in between you might say!

Personally, if I was OPs DH, I'd hire the cleaner. If I was OP, I'd hire the cleaner. She isn't subservient to her husband...

I think I'll go now. Obviously unwelcome!

pinkyredrose what the fuck? what kind of manners is that?

BertieBotts you may not have seen but I've done one better than that. I've changed jobs so I'll be home 24/7, able to work inbetween, watch my little boy grow up, and give my SO the much needed support that she deserves.

Mansplaining isn't about ability to know something. It's more about assuming that you know more and that your input is valuable.

You said that you posted wanting to know what work is involved with looking after a baby, you also said that your first is not yet born, and finally, you described looking after a baby as "sitting on a sofa", which suggests a lack of awareness as to what is involved. Therefore, it's a reasonable assumption that you're a, looking for information, and b, less informed than people who have actually experienced the scenario, so while some responses might have been scathing, it's not the same thing as "Mansplaining".

FWIW, your "Conversation with the husband" (back a page or two) was not mansplaining for this reason; the OP asked for input. I still feel it was overly simplistic and perhaps a bit patronising but it wasn't mansplaining.

As has been said above, you are asking how long a piece of string is. I do housework much more efficiently with three while also studying and working than I did with one.

Typically, over time, the more you do any task, the more efficient you become at it - this is no less true in domestic work than any other sphere.

In most other lines of work, though, you have some sort of predictability in terms of input and output and the more volatile your client base, the more likely there are inbuilt safeguards to manage your health and stress levels. Housework is insanely dull and offers very few rewards which can be very demotivating.

And most of us are doing it in a context where we don't have a lot of support and in the absence of any social status or value being attached to it: revolutionfromhome.com/2016/04/absence-village-mothers-struggle/

It's a lot more psychologically difficult than it is physically, and I think few men really get an appreciation of that. Life changes immensely for women after having children and rarely as much so for men. The system is set up this way, to the detriment of all of us.

Nah don't go. Everyone gets a roasting their first time on AIBU. Call it a baptism of fire.

Sounds good :) I hadn't seen every post on the (fast moving!) thread. Basically I think that it's important for you both to assume the other IS putting in everything they can, to ask for support if needed, and to try and understand the others' position.

KeyboardDad

Just to give you a picture. In the early days (months) I couldn't put her down without her screaming. She would only sleep in a moving buggy so I couldn't do anything while she was napping. Feeding her was incredibly hard and painful - I had deep cracks in my nipples that opened whenever I fed her. Just imagine having to do that to your nipples every couple of hours (or more on a bad day)? Winding her took forever. She was underweight, so it was also very stressful. Oh and she would only sleep on my chest at night - so I spent all night sitting semi upright, trying to sleep like that as best I could. I was pretty much a zombie in the morning.

Given all of that - no, I didn't get anything done in the day other than looking after her. I barely had time to eat or pee. And I had no energy (did I mention breastfeeding makes you incredibly tired?) And yes, when DH got home I expected him to cook supper and clean up, while I sat on the sofa. And he agreed that was more than fair. Because he's not a dick. He'd seen what looking after DD was like, and agreed he had a much easier time at work (and he has a very demanding job).

Admittedly, DD was on the difficult end of the baby spectrum. But she wasn't the worst I've heard of by a long chalk.

I think you have NOT A CLUE what babies are really like. You're not alone in this btw. I thought a lot like you until I had an actual baby...

You might get lucky and get one of the easy ones. Just be prepared to adjust your expectations if you don't.

Then I hope she's telling you what a ridiculous way to post it was!

Devils advocacy (oh and I have an English degree I don't need a definition for every term you use) is otherwise known as goady which is not allowed on Mn - I've reported you for that - as well as the misogyny!

I see about the joke now, KeyboardDad. Thanks. Bit insulting though, saying you posted like that to fit in. No one else on here has posted in that style.

no shit?? really?? never knew that in the 5 (bible length) books I've read in the past 7 months, or in the 10 years I spent with babies in the house growing up

Unfortunately your posts give the strong impression that you do NOT know that. Or, at least, that you're not willing to listen to other posters' experiences.

pinky's comment was very rude, agreed.

Op - hes a lazy arse. Either tell him to sort his shit out or hire a cleaner - but as pp have said, a cleaner is only going to clean the surfaces they can see + it'll only stay clean until ur oh messes it up and leaves it

But come on people, leave keyboarddad be - hes read 5 - that's 5! - books on parenting, he knows it all of course!! And he was the only one who could get people to have a discussion ....on one of the largest forums, where there's hundreds thousands?? of discussions going on....we would have all stayed silent and confused without him! We should be thankful of his condescending, sexist ludicrous posts, what do we all know about being at home/working/raising kids - we just have them/do it.....this man read books!!

Choosing to ignore what I'm really hoping is a troll.

Just to say, as an untidy woman, that slovenliness isn't always a patriarchal strategy of dominance and subjugation. I honestly think some people are able to see what needs to be done to make something properly clean, and some people really struggle. I've always thought it was something neurological to do with where your attention naturally goes - like whether you're able to remember names and faces, or play music by ear, or learn easily to drive a car. I don't think my leaving my coffee cup in the living room is a manipulative strategy of learned incompetence designed to bend my DH to my will. I just don't spot it. As he doesn't spot his socks on the floor. That makes us both annoying to live with a lot of the time - but we do love and respect each other, and getting a cleaner (who we pay well and do not expose to skiddy loos, etc) has made life so much smoother and happier.

Just to say there may be ways of working around housework conflict other than L-ing TB on the assumption that he's a lazy, woman-hating shitbag finally showing his true colours.

keyboard dad I am not an idiot you don't have to explain simple concepts. But thanks for my share of the patronizing misogyny you are dishing out.

If you truly wanted to know you could have asked but instead you marched in full pelt with your uninformed and frankly disrespectful manner. Now you are trying to dress it up as 'playing devils advocate' and 'encouraging discussion'

You weren't. I don't buy it sorry. You were being goady and mansplaining.