JF96 YNWA

[Bearlyknitted]

27 years. Justice at last.

I watched the US documentary last night - incredibly moving.

As one of the survivors said, 'would you pick the pockets of people dying around you? Would you urinate on policemen trying to save people? No? Then why the would you believe I would do it?'

The methodical way that every single police statement was sanitised (I had no idea abut that) to whitewash the story in incredible.

I'm also amazed that the different versions were all kept. Seems like a rookie mistake - if you have zero moral issue with falsifying documents, you could hardly have any scruple about destroying them afterwards. Thank God they weren't.

Would anyone be able to tell me the title of the us documentary, the link above has now broken and I would be very interested in watching it.

Try ESPN 30 for 30 I think it was.

Alpaca

it's here

Shocking, compelling and moving. Watched all of it last night...

.

You can see columns of police heading west along the sidelines as the game goes on, and fans running to the stands from the west end along the sidelines. The police knew there was trouble in the west end almost from the start therefore.

At 5:35 the camera turns to the west end pens where fans are steadily climbing over the fences, and you can see the congestion there.

The commentator states without a shadow of a doubt at 5:43-50, 'This is a match of course that everybody wanted to see, and the police have taken the decision that they've got to open the gates to ease the crush'.

At 6:53 the game is stopped.

7:17
'Capacity at Hillsborough, 54,100...and it would appear that too many of them are on that terrace behind Bruce Grobbelaar's goal'. The commentator says the crowd is in danger of encroaching on the pitch because of overcrowding behind the Forest goal.

At 6:55-57 you can see one fan in a beige/grey sweater and darker grey trousers arguing vehemently with someone on the field, punching his arms down in frustration, and then running while pointing back towards the situation in the pen. He is clearly saying what is going on and looking for help.

A British news report snippet follows where fans are blamed.

Apologies if this has already been mentioned but I'd like to mention a column Suzanne Moore wrote for The Guardian on 28/4/16. "cold class contempt" sums it up.

I'd like to add my support to the relatives, friends and survivors of the 96. I hope that prosecutions ensue. And that many lessons are learned.

That is what is most chilling math it wasn't even a case of taking the word of the police over the testimony of the fans - the photographic coverage is pretty clear as to the nature of what happened. The fact the police were still able to make theirs the main narrative despite this is extraordinary, and horrifying.

Adrian Tempany's article was incredibly moving on a personal level, but also extremely good on both the background and cultural effects of Hillsborough. It clarified for me why Taylor's interim report didn't carry more weight against the police at the time.

It seems to me that it has taken the young men and women of 18/19 who were caught up in this tragedy to reach full adulthood and gain the knowledge to realise the magnitude of what was done to them.

I was 8 at the time and the last ten years or so has really been an awakening to the era I was growing up in.

So awful watching that game going on knowing what was happening in the terraces, why the fuck didn't they stop it fgs.

Several witnesses saw police pushing people back in, including Jenni Hicks. It is unbelievable that they didn't realise that people were in real trouble - it can be seen clearly on that footage.

There's a panorama on this on YT as well - and they show footage where you can clearly hear people screaming and shouting "Help us" while the game was playing - how could the police miss that?? Or did they hear it, and think it was rioting, and just not care? There were children in there ffs, how could they not act, even if it was some fans rioting (which I know it wasn't). They were clearly in distress. I will never ever understand that.

Pagwatch your experience is also disturbing, although (obvs) on a less serious scale, and I'm not surprised it has always troubled you. I'd always been brought up to trust the police, and done the same for my children. I'm (not quite, but almost) of the "ask a policeman" generation, my parents certainly were.

I also heard Stephen Lawrence's father talking on the radio this morning, and it shakes your world view, it really does.

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/apr/27/the-hillsborough-verdict-shatters-the-fantasty-that-class-war-doesnt-exist

clicky for rogueantimatter

Thank you sashh.

Pagwatch - we were brought up to believe that Britain is wonderfully free from corruption! I posted on another thread about being manipulated by the media re HB, but also the striking miners and thinking there must be no smoke without fire, to put it crudely. I've gradually become more aware anyway but I am incensed by the callous attitutude of 'the establishment' to working class people in general and the people of Liverpool in particular. The way they played on previous hooliganism to 'other' the 96 is sickening.

The posters who have told of frightening crowds reminded me of the time I took my son to the first (and I think, only - presumably for safety reasons) river festival in a city. I assume a crush wouldn't have happened as there was no barrier between the side of the river that we were on and the river, but the groups of people going in two different directions came to a standstill. We weren't as tightly packed as the other posters who have told about crowds but I was frightened that if anyone slipped it would have been dangerous. And it was claustrophobic. You couldn't tell that you were walking into a huge crowd until the flow stopped. One man was bad-tempered but another man told him to be patient. I was frightened that someone would start trying to push through and knock people over

The links about crowd disasters are terrifying. Especially when you read that not all incidents are recorded. How could the authorities in Sheffield have had so little concern for crowd safety? Especially given the previous incidents.

There was a crowd crush at The Libertines reunion in 2014 - the difference there being that people could get over the barriers and escape fairly easily.

and

I've just read another article about the families - there are comments and I've read the first one. Someone at the other semi asked a West Midlands PC if they knew what had happened at Hillsborough, the answer, "70 Scousers dead... and if you lot kick off, there'll be another 70"

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/apr/26/hillsborough-families-27-years#comment-73107676

There was a thread on this very site a few Christmasses ago about Hyde Parks Winter Wonderland . A few MNers were worried about the crowding there and apparently there was a crush. I distinctly remember ppl posting that Hillsborough was running through their minds.

Yes,yes to the poster who said only now the magnitude of what was happening in that era is evident to her.

I was 10 when Hillsborough happened. I was also working class and living in the North of England. The 80s were a dark time in British history, I do believe that. And I don't think you can separate things like Hillsborough, Saville, Miners strikes etc from the context of class war, misogny and Thatcherism.

It warrants some detailed, historical analysis to make sure we never go there again.

It makes me wonder more and more about how far the cover up goes in relation to the Saville abuse as well

stugtank - I couldn't agree more ( both you posts)

It wants some detailed, historical analysis to make sure we never go there again

I think we are there right now.

Interestingly, Dan Davies, a Hillsborough survivor who is also now a journalist, wrote the recent 'biography' of Saville, the first one I think to really go into the extent of what he did, his contacts, and the cultural implications of his success and prominence.

It seems to have been an obsession of his to expose Saville, and seeing how tied up it all was with Thatcher and the police, with hindsight you can see that Saville and the Hillsborough cover up thrived in the same conditions. No wonder the search for truth there, too, was strangely compelling for him.

Unfortunately, I have to agree with BoatyMcBoat. We are heading in the same direction.