JF96 YNWA

[Bearlyknitted]

27 years. Justice at last.

I am pleased the families now have the knowledge someone else was at fault.

I hope it gives them the closure they deserve

Its about the "othering" of people isnt it? The "othering" of certain groups in society.

As a social housing tenant i used to go on the Inside Housing website before it was subscription only. Some of the generalizing and othering type remarks on there by people who work in the sector were bloody awful. How tenants must be "cannabis growers with something to hide" if tenants dare to ask for a more convenient appointment for the gas safety check.

The "othering" of football fans and working class people laid the groundwork and made it easier for people to believe the worst about a group of people. As shown by what ive typed in this post the police are not the only sector where this problem occurs.

I see the families are going to take a 'class action' lawsuit against 2 Police forces.
I think that is the correct thing to do, especially with the limited admission of guilt / apologies currently on offer.
It is really important that 'lessons are learned' otherwise all those people died for nowt.

Combination of fan and police behaviour?

First of all, the background facts:- that there was still a wide-spread hooligan problem, how Heysel happened, police attitudes etc, are exactly that, background facts. They do not amount to a valid case for criticism of the particular Liverpool fans who attended on that day.

Even more importantly, even if one could criticise Liverpool fans for rushing in to the ground (I don't agree), I simply don't accept that there is an unbroken line of causation between that and the disaster that unfolded.

At numerous points, different police decisions could have averted some if not all of the tragedy. No need, for most people, to rehearse what they were, it has been gone over many times. The HIP and the inquest jury verdict canvass them.

Talking about a combination of fan and police behaviour just fails to appreciate (or glosses over) the astonishing ineptitude of the police operation initially and the horrifying passivity/indifference of the police as the problem manifested itself.

Police caused the crush then stood by as people died, EVEN 44 PEOPLE ON THE PITCH WHO COULD HAVE BEEN SAVED BY PROMPT ACTION, AT NO RISK TO OFFICERS.

I really think some of the reluctance to absorb and accept this is because it is terrifying to contemplate, but it is true.

Agreed, but that still does not place the blame solely at the feet of the police. The circumstances were a creation of both police and fan behaviour.

Careful, Loopy. A jury says that you are wrong. To repeat these disproved allegations is nothing short of libel.

Yes, just posted something similar on the sun newspaper thread. Not only did the police lie and blame unticketed fans pushing the gates open, not make sure pens were closed when they filled up and filleter fans in to less populated pens but they did not take action when it went wrong. Even if it was the case that fans had pushed in there is no excuse for not stepping in and helping, so many stode back and watched, I can't get my head around that which is probably why there was a huge cover up. Bad enough to cause it but to not help is shocking.

The fact that it happened in the first place was criminal negligence and incompetence, that's one thing. But the fact that there were systematic lies and cover-ups for 27 years afterwards, stopping the families from finding a resolution, is pure self-serving, malicious evil, perpetrated by an institution people are supposed to trust. I would hope that both the negligence and the lies now lead to court cases and convictions

Hear Hear and yes, very dodgy legal ground to contest the findings of the inquest.

While I can understand serious concerns about keeping public order and to a certain extent the tendency to pre-judge football fans for violence, I simply cannot forgive the total disregard for safety around and inside the ground.

The ground had no safety certificate, which is was required to hold.

The FA selected the venue disregarding the above and previous safety problems at the ground. They may not have been aware there was no safety certificate, but surely they should have been?

Look at the figures, capacity and turnstiles, you can find them on the Wikipedia page and just imagine how woefully inadequate the access planning was - and that's before accounting for traffic delays on the day.

7 turnstiles (lettered A to G) provided access to 10,100 standing places in the lower tier of the West Stand

I never really realised how many of the victims were under 18.

Naught

"But then my best friends mum said it was their fault they kept pushing forward when the front were getting crushed!"

That is such an idiotic thing for her to say. Has she never been in a crowd? I've been in crowd where the momentum is such that if someone were to stumble and fall, I doubt anyone could avoid treading on them. It's terrifying- a horrible, horrible way to die.

I remember reading a really interesting scientific article about crowd behaviour and crowd control after the Mecca tramplings last year.

How Crowd Disasters happen

This is the article

Oh absolutely I was using her statement as example of people wanting to blame the "football hooligans" which I think loopy was doing as some one that's not understood what it's like to be in that situation.

Where else were they meant to go the gates were open the police just wanted Liverpool fans of the streets. I've been to many football games and sometimes just the force of the drive forward is terrifying. I'm young enough to know the fences were down even on the terraces and as should I be pushed forward so much that is be able to get on to the pitch.

i can't imagine the terror and fear and as has pointed out so many under 18! I was 9 and looking forward to watching such a special game.

yes

I remember reading that people at the back coming through were completely unaware of what was happening at the front. In fact, according to the Guardian article 30 of the victims were some of the last to enter the pen and almost immediately swept to the front and were the first to die.

The whole thing is horrifying. I would have been just under a year old when it happened. I don't remember when I first heard about it but I've always been shocked when reading these reports on anniversaries etc. It seems clear that it was mismanagement - I had assumed for a long time that it was just that they didn't know in those days but in fact the near incidents before HAD set a precedent and reading that Guardian article today, there were plans put in place to avoid such a disaster but they were just totally ignored. It wasn't lack of knowledge, or accident. It was negligence. The knowledge was there but it was not utilised. That is shocking.

Apparently the police officer in charge "can't remember" what he was doing for two hours before the match begun, whereas normal practice would have been to check the flow of fans through the city. He could also have used this time to familiarise himself with the stadium. I reckon he was probably in the pub. Which is ironic

I was at Fellows Park, Walsall in 1984 when the wall behind the goal was demolished by Liverpool fans surging forwards after a goal was scored. I have read the official inquiry into this and not one person blamed a Liverpool fan for what happened - its what happened and still does at grounds where there is still terracing. The only reason a tragedy was averted is because there were no fences up so the wall broke and the crowds dispersed onto the pitch, Indeed, the senior H&SE representative said it was a blessing there was nothing to keep the supporters in, so a tragedy was avoided.
Having seen the planning involved by senior West Mids Police Force in making sure there was adequate cover for this game, only reinforces how pathetic South Yorks Policing was. They didn't put the effort in before the game and when problems ensued due to that, they buried their heads in the sand and tried to hide from their responsibilities.
I have some sympathy for those officers and medics who have been affected with PTSD, whether through their actions or their inaction due to acting on orders from on high. But the seniors involved should never ever be allowed to sleep soundly for the rest of their lives.

I've been at the front at a music event where no one other than me and a security guard noticed my friend fall. The people at the back certainly didn't know someone up front was in danger. We were lucky, the crowd was well controlled and the guard pulled both my friend and then me over the barrier.

As for the officer in charge not remembering I doubt there is a police officer from that time who doesn't remember exactly what they were doing, whether at Hillsborough or thanking their lucky stars they weren't at Hillsborough.

Andy Burnham is on Question Time now.

Bertie, yes indeed.
They had had problems with that stadium before, but the senior officer (Brian Mole) had managed to cobble together a protocol to mitigate the deficiencies of the immediate surroundings of the stadium and the stadium itself. It involved active monitoring of crowd movement in the city towards the stadium by Mole himself for hours, closure of the tunnel that led straight to the pens behind the goal when they were full, and diversion of fans to the left and the right into pens that usually filled slower.

Mole was dismissed by Wright a few weeks before the match, and Duckenfield apparently didn't bother familiarising himself with Mole's protocol or the hands on approach Mole had used, or even the layout of the stadium and surrounding streets.

If you look at coverage, esp the 'Anatomy' documentary iirc, you will see that the pens to the left and right of the scene of the tragedy were relatively sparsely filled.

The exact same game had been played the year before, with no deaths or injuries (but there had been concerns about crushing that were ignored by the FA and Sheffield Wednesday, and it was a close call). Same fans, same point of the season, same interest in the game, same deficient stadium with no safety certificate, same alley funneling the crowd into the stadium, same gate and same tunnel, same number of turnstiles. I think this is a strong argument for police collapse as the reason for the deaths, with FA blithe unconcern for fans' welfare and Sheffield Wednesday's greed as contributing factors.

The stadium was the site of a semi final crush in 1981 too, with injuries reported among the Spurs fans in the west end pens.

It's worth noting that over 700 people were injured in 1989.

YY to everyone else here. I'm staggered by people still blaming the fans on the day. What part of-

Question seven: "Was there any behaviour on the part of the football supporters which caused or contributed to the dangerous situation at the Leppings Lane turnstiles?” NO

-do they not understand?

The fans were not at fault - they went to a football match, and they entered a venue through a gate opened by the police. Anyone who has ever been caught in a crowd will understand - when a crowd moves, you move. You have no choice.

I have been in a crowd crush situation twice in my life - once at a festival in the 90's, and once at a firework display in the 80's. They are scary - you have no control at all. The latter I can remember hearing a woman crying out that she had lost her children, 'please will you make way so I can find my children' - but nobody could move. I've never forgotten it. As far as I know, all was well in the end - but I can only imagine what the fans went through in those pens at Hillsborough

I have nothing but admiration for the Hillsborough families who fought so long for justice.

The youngest victim was Steven Gerrard's cousin who was 10. That just doesn't bear thinking about. The graphic photos in some of the papers the next day still haunt me - the look of absolute terror on those poor people's faces.
I remember John Motson announcing authoritatively that the cause of the 'overcrowding' was a broken gate and ticketless fans coming. Did the Police honestly think they'd get away with that and that people wouldn't say what actually happened?
I do admire Andy Burnham for his part in this- he requested that the rule that official documents are kept secret for 30 years be overturned in this case which meant they could access all the doctored Police statements.
I don't know how any of those responsible for this can sleep at night.

Has anyone seen

Has anyone seen Jeremy Hunt's gaff? It utterly beggars belief.

I remember John Motson announcing authoritatively that the cause of the 'overcrowding' was a broken gate and ticketless fans coming. Did the Police honestly think they'd get away with that and that people wouldn't say what actually happened?

But they did get away with it, for years.

Not seen what Hunt has said/done.

BTW 'Hillsborough' is being broadcast 10.20 ITV Saturday

Sashh What I meant was that the Police quickly had to change their story from the gate being broken and admit that they'd ordered it to be opened. That in itself should have aroused suspicion.

There was an excellent BBC Radio 5 programme on, presented by Kelly Cates, with David Conn who's written extensively about Hillsborough for years.

This is a link to Neil Fitzmaurice talking about the day itself. It doesn't contain upsetting scenes but what he describes is powerful and harrowing.

The whole podcast

I have been reading about this almost obsessively, and apparently the safety certificate at Hillsborough was actually not valid on the day of the tragedy.

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/jun/09/hillsborough-inquest-sheffield-wednesday-safety-rules