JF96 YNWA

[Bearlyknitted]

27 years. Justice at last.

Hooliganism did make the news at the time, even down our way, so I can see why they tried to ride on that.

But anyone watching the scenes can see quite clearly that nothing was amiss in terms of the fans' behaviour.

TheDowager

I wonder if we saw all that footage though, at the time (I was 19). This was pre-internet. I think it would not have been in the interests of "the story" to show endless footage of well-behaved lively happy people

It was a conspiracy, wasn't it?

I think with Duckenfield, he told a desperate lie, but then his superiors helped him perpetuate it by building a whole narrative around it where it seemed like it had actually happened, was the correct course of action, and he was thoroughly supported in it to the point they tried to create the evidence that made it reasonable.

As much as I hold Duckenfield morally and (criminally) responsible, I also feel he was a cog in the machine, and was used as it saw fit at the time, but equally they would have no scruple in scapegoating him for the whole thing when many, many others must be culpable also.

I read he said he blocked it out for some time, effectively shutting it out to the point where he could not bear any mention of the word Hillsborough, but over the recent past he has begun to face it with the aid of psychiatrists. I want to believe his remorse now is genuine, but it is so little and too late for many, and only really showed when he was completely cornered and it was not going away.

I am pleased the families have the beginnings of justice, but there is no undoing the past 27 years, and so many have been placed in such a despicable light, it destabilises your world view. I choose to concentrate on the heroism of the fans, the selflessness they showed in the direst circumstances, the Liverpool team, led by Dalglish and his wife, who were there for the families in both the immediate aftermath and the years of legal turmoil since, and most of all the families themselves, who showed such courage and resilience.

Just explained the story to my 9year old - he was at a match yesterday and took part in the minute's applause. It is horrifying to think that the youngest victim was only a year older than him.

I watched the Jimmy McGovern film with a Y11 class a few years ago. Deeply, deeply affecting.

I think the most hideous lie told by The Sun was that fans picked the pockets of dead people. The reality was that fans made makeshift stretchers from advertising boards, tried to revive victims and held the hands of people as they died. That was such a despicable lie to come out with, I can't imagine the mind of someone who would make up something like that. It must have been unimaginable for the fans that were there having to read that and knowing that many people would be only too willing to believe it.

So proud to see my clubs fans sing YNWA yesterday in a tribute to the 96.

The tributes and reactions yesterday show how important this was.

I was almost in tears listening to Evertons on the radio. Football fans get an awful lot of stick, and I'm not saying some of that isn't deserved, but when it matters they really are a community.

I think hillsborogh will live especially with my generation, we were just learning to enjoy football going to matches with our parents just like so many of the victims. Many of just a few years older than us won't remember the terraces, (I support a lower league team so do.

I remember when the Jimmy McGovern film that's on tonight was first broadcast I was a football fan in a class of not many football fans, we couldn't stop talking about it for days. It's lived with me since 1996.

Satsuki I think that is spot on.

To come up with a lie within minutes if realising his mistake. To have felt the terrible effects of that. And then to have lived with that and not admitted openly and apologised, for decades. What sort of mental processes go into constructing and then perpetuating that lie?

It's not uncommon in my experience for police officers to have an attitude to others that they are scum, they use the word 'scrote'.

There are some police who believe their job is to save lives and prevent crime. There are far too many others who believe their job is to get as many convictions as possible, and are not too bothered about how they do that or even if a crime has been committed, and that their first priority is to support and if necessary cover for their colleagues.

I do not believe the police intended people to die, but I am not convinced they didn't want people to be uncomfortable for a couple of hours.

sashh

Yes, that is what I fear - that there's a particular mindset that would lead to this - again and again and again.

Great piece in the Guardian yesterday, by a survivor. Looks at the political cover up at the time and what justice means to him. Warning though, his descriptions of his experience in the crush, and what he saw, are graphic and disturbing:

Guardian Hillsborough article

I agree about David Conn - such an articulate writer/broadcaster and a tireless campaigner. I heard him speak about ten years ago, partly on the subject of Hillsborough. His books are worth a read for anyone who is interested in football and what happened at and after Hillsborough.

Agree with sashh and Narp You can even see that kind of mindset in threads on here sometimes.

Ive seen the J G docudrama before but im rewatching again on ITV 1 +1 This must NEVER NEVER NEVER be allowed to happen again but to lessen the chances of this the "othering" of groups of ppl HAS to stop

In the Observer yesterday, a survivor Adrian Tempany, who was 19 at the time writes:

"In July 1989, two plain-clothes detectives arrived at my home in Stevenage....... They sat me down and said they'd write my statement by hand, and then I should read it, and if I was happy, sign it. So I began to tell then what had happened and they began to laugh at me. They were soon snorting too, and yawning, and turning away to watch the golf. And nodding sarcastically when I told them about the failings of the police, and how they had abused the supporters as they tried to save the dead........[When he looked at what they'd written, they'd changed it, omitted key details] ... As I grew increasingly angry, the detective with the remote control in his hands pumped up the volume on the TV. I was shouting to be heard in my own living room and they were trying to drown me out. Eventually I signed the statement and they were gone.
I could not have realised at the time... that I was caught up in one of the biggest attempts to pervert the course of justice in British History."

[He then went on to describe how that interview planted a seed in his mind about why he'd seen. Even though he'd been in a pile of dead people, smelled the smells, helped carry the dead. This nearly drove him to mental illness and into prison, but he became a writer instead]

The police conspiracy in Yorkshire reminds me of The Red Riding Trilogy

Aah

just seen the Guardian and Observer articles are the same one

I've just read that article, Narp. It really does beggar belief that a survivor was laughed at by police when giving his statement. Utterly shocking.

I remember watching Hillsborough, when the policeman taking the statement asked of bereaved parents "you'll be telling he was a virgin next" when they said he didn't drink. I thought (hoped!) that it was a bit of 'dramatic license' - to show how vile the police were to the victim's families. I thought nobody could be that crass, that heartless, to say that to people who were in grief and shock from losing a loved one. Whose loved one was probably lying feet away from them in a body bag.

But no. On the program that BertieBotts linked to - a man described this very incident in interview.

I find the whole thing so very harrowing - how the families were literally powerless to do anything, to get any justice, in the face of an institutionalised cover-up.

Another thing I read was David Duckenfield saying:

footage of a mother having to cuddle her dead child on the dirty floor of the Hillsborough gymnasium was the most moving thing he had ever seen, and that it had shown him "what it means to a mother to lose a loved one".

Which makes me think he must be some sort of sociopath -most people are fully aware of this facet of human existence already. That a police chief is so divorced from the reality of the people he is paid to 'protect and serve' is astonishing. He really did see those fans as inhuman on that day. And he continued to lie for a further 26 years. And some of them are still lying about it now.

I agree with sashh and naro too.

When I was just staring work in London in the 1980s I fare dodged on the underground.
Back then you could hand cash to the staff as you were leaving the station if your station ticket office was shut or the queue too long.
I was late for work and had stayed at a friends house. I had a £5.00 note or a 50pence piece. To get change I'd have to queue at the window at the station so I lied. I gave the ticket man 50p and told him I'd come from a stain two stops closer than mine. My actual fare was 70p.

I'd never done it before. I'm usually honest because I have/had a strong respect for the rules /authority so I'd be terrified about doing something wrong and getting caught. Of course - that was the day they were doing spot checks. I was taken to one side. There was a police man. I was horrified and immediately admitted it saying 'I'm so, so sorry. I've never done anything like this before. I was in a rush - I just wanted to avoid queuing. '

Everyone picked up was taken to court (fair enough) . I was fined £60 (also fair enough) .
But when this bright faced policeman read out what I had said from his notebook he said "I can't believe I got caught. It's only a small amount. What does it matter'

It has bothered me for so long because I thought if this guy was prepared to tell bare faced lies over a 20p fare dodger, what else would he do. What lies has he told since?
He smirked at me as he finished his evidence. He clearly thought he'd done something marvellous.

Sorry narp

I think the most hideous lie told by The Sun was that fans picked the pockets of dead people

If the Guardian from 2004 is to be believed ( www.theguardian.com/media/2004/jul/07/pressandpublishing.football1 ) The Sun also said this:

"Sheffield MP Irvine Patnick revealed that in one shameful episode a gang of Liverpool fans noticed that the blouse of a girl trampled to death had risen above her breasts.

"As a policeman struggled in vain to revive her, the mob jeered: 'Throw her up here and we will her'"

Formatting mischief:

"As a policeman struggled in vain to revive her, the mob jeered: 'Throw her up here and we will [] her'"

Yes *Under8 - That bit shocked me the most. Those policeman really must have thought Liverpool families were scum

Pag

It must be so destabilising to realise that the police lie. What they did to those survivors and families nearly drove some of them mad. Some committed suicide. others died prematurely.

The bit that has always shocked and upset me the most is the parents being told they couldn't see their children, that they were 'property of the coroner'. Beyond callous. I can't imagine the pain of not being able to hold your son's hand/stroke his face/kiss him goodbye for one last time. I'm getting tearful now just thinking about it. So cruel.

It must be so destabilising to realise that the police lie

Try being arrested for something that didn't even happen. Being held somewhere that advertised it was the most sophisticated station in the country with regards to IT but strangely ALL cctv didn't work that day.