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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

JF96 YNWA

421 replies

Bearlyknitted · 26/04/2016 12:32

27 years. Justice at last.

OP posts:
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5
TinklyLittleLaugh · 28/04/2016 12:05

Well there were no entry procedures in place were there? No queue management, only a handful of turnstiles open, and the policeman in charge had never handled a major football match before. That there was a crush at the gates, that the match was not delayed, the the gates were opened, that the fans who rushed in were not directed away from pens 3 and 4 which were already full, that was all down to the police.

That the match was not stopped immediately and the gates to the pens unlocked, that emergency services were not allowed in to tend to the injured and dying. Again, that was down to the police.

If you go to a major public event you should be safe.

SatsukiKusakabe · 28/04/2016 12:41

If you are in the midst of a large crowd and the police open a gate and usher you all through, what would you have done differently, loopylou?

The police should have had them queuing, not allowing a crowd to amass so that here was danger outside, then open a gate and send them through a tunnel into a single already crowded space, not even removing ticket stubs. The fans had no idea what they were being directed into, and a crowd moves along. A request was made to delay the match from one of the officers and was denied.

Of course they didn't intend this, but that's the whole point - the match commander was out of his depth and didn't think through any decision, and once he'd made one that was obviously negligent, proceeded to lie about it. For 27 years.

The fact that this view of its being the fan's fault pervades is a direct result of these lies and misdirections. That is why it is so important to read the facts of the case, it is important reading for anyone who ever wants to attend an event in public and relies on the organising authorities to keep them safe, and to act with integrity.

These were students, young couples, families with children, single women, friends out for the afternoon, not hooligans.

LittleMissBossyBoots · 28/04/2016 12:43

The circumstances were a creation of both police and fan behaviour.

FFS! 27 years! 27 fucking years, 3 inquiries, 2 inquests, 450,000 pages of evidence and still people are spouting shit about about 'fan behaviour'.

Question 7 of the inquest jury:

7. Behaviour of the supporters: Was there any behaviour on the part of the football supporters which caused or contributed to the dangerous situation at the Leppings Lane turnstiles?

Jury's answer: No

So fuck off with goady lie perpetuating twattery.

LagunaBubbles · 28/04/2016 12:43

The circumstances were a creation of both police and fan behaviour

Really??

So you know better than the jury, who sat nad listened to all the evidence - their verdict that the fans werent to blame?

HanYOLO · 28/04/2016 13:00

Loopy, you are not being "controversial", you are being stupid.

herethereandeverywhere · 28/04/2016 13:02

It's difficult not to despair at the constant ignorance and 'fans are to blame' rhetoric. Only last week (before the verdicts but still...) I was speaking to some school parents and this happened. I found myself countering all the usual:

  1. The fans turned up late.
My answer: no later than usual. The police should have know about roadworks on the motorway between Sheffield and Liverpool. The Taylor report found no fault in this regard.
  1. It was ticketless fans outside that caused it:
My answer: The Taylor report surveyed CCTV footage and did a headcount of everyone who passed through the gate and everyone in the 4 pens. They were within capacity but just not evenly spread, with the crush occurring in the central 2 pens.
  1. The police couldn't have known.
My Answer: There had been crushes in previous years and they had previously closed off the tunnel to the central pens to avoid overcrowding. There was not such closure in 1989.In addition Bradford and Ibrox had happened - there was a history to learn from.

I was speaking to a Sheffield Wednesday fan who could not accept that:
a) policing a semi-final was different
b) police owed a duty of care to maintain safety, not just public order
c) Crowd management and control are key responsibilities at major sporting events

He seemed to think the Liverpool fans should somehow have known the central pens were full, known that there was no way to move sideways because of the fencing and that they wilfully ignored the routes to the empty side pens. I haven't seen him since the verdict...

I had read the Taylor and 2012 reports, he and the other parent who offered the Hysel line of argument (the Liverpool fans deserved to be fencced in and crushed because of Hysel, they brought it on themselves) had read neither and seemed to know little about the actual facts of the day. And so it persists with dickhead comments from the likes of loopylou...

Archfarchnad · 28/04/2016 13:12

That image of the 96 photos together makes me well up each time I see it; they were so YOUNG.

The fact that it happened in the first place was criminal negligence and incompetence, that's one thing. But the fact that there were systematic lies and cover-ups for 27 years afterwards, stopping the families from finding a resolution, is pure self-serving, malicious evil, perpetrated by an institution people are supposed to trust. I would hope that both the negligence and the lies now lead to court cases and convictions.

yolofish · 28/04/2016 13:15

There is something I simply dont understand, and this is WHY did the police on the pitch at the time not run forward and DO something? they must have been able to see something was happening, and whether it was fighting or tragedy (as it sadly was) why did they just hold the line? even if they had acted 5, 10, 15 minutes in they could have done something, whoever was in charge could have allowed the ambulances onto the pitch quicker?

And the lies and cover up later on - there must be heads that should roll for that, and not just David Duckenfield's.

Not a footie fan, no Liverpool connections, but remember this day so clearly. JWT96 YWNA

LikeASoulWithoutAMind · 28/04/2016 13:16

The circumstances were a creation of both police and fan behaviour.

Question 7 of the inquest jury:

7. Behaviour of the supporters: Was there any behaviour on the part of the football supporters which caused or contributed to the dangerous situation at the Leppings Lane turnstiles?

Jury's answer: No

MissHooliesCardigan · 28/04/2016 13:18

You should watch the Panorama programme on Hillsborough which was presented by a journalist who was at the match. It paints a picture or a catastrophic Policing failure- there were barely any Police outside the ground. If there had been, they should have been able to prevent the situation building up that led them to make the decision to open the gate.
Once they were through the turnstiles, the only place the fans were able to go was into an already overcrowded pen. In the footage, John Motson says just before the match starts that he can't understand why that area of the stand was so crowded when there were other parts that were half empty. They should never have been directed into that pen, it was just leading them to their death. Of course the Police didn't intend for people to die but they were criminally negligent. As an HCP, if my negligent practice leads to someone's death, it doesn't matter that I didn't deliberately kill them, I am still accountable. And, if I went to great lengths to cover up my mistake and got found out, I would get sacked.
The inquests took 2 years and the jurors concluded that the fans' behaviour in no way contributed to their deaths The fans did nothing wrong. I honestly can't believe that anyone still believes that.
Those poor families have had to listen for years to people saying that this tragedy was down to the behaviour of the fans. There are people on here who lost loved ones at Hillsborough. How do you think it makes them feel to read that?

sashh · 28/04/2016 13:30

1. The fans turned up late.

Even if they had there was designated parking for coaches and cars at different points. Fans also arrived by train and were actually held at the station for 10 mins.

When you know where people are going to park / disembark and the route to the ground they will have to take you would have to be an idiot not to control the flow in to a known bottleneck. There should have been plans in place for if anyone did arrive late.

People who lived on Leppings lane said they had never seen crowds like it. These are the people who saw the crowds arrive for games every week and also the previous year when the same teams played in the same ground at the same stage of the competition.

The difference? The policing.

No checks on tickets on the way to the ground. No closure of the central pens once they were full. No holding groups of people for 10-15 mins to have a steady flow in to the bottle neck. Opening a gate to allow a large group of people in but with no direction of where to go. When Trevor Hicks, concerned for his daughters' safety asked a policemen to move some people out of the central pens he was met with foul language. The stopping of ambulances getting in to the ground was done by the police. The not implementing of the major incident plan was done by the police.

laylabelle · 28/04/2016 13:32

purplevase agree with number 2 part of the problem was having heysel before and the events there and the 39 deaths there and having Liverpool involved in that to means in that sense people's view were tainted etc.so more convinced they were to blame rather then what actually happened.
There was a thing about the chairman?whoever at the time saying Chelsea fans were involved as southern accents could be heard so don't think that helped with views on events later on with blame etc.

Though there was a mix of fans behaviour and the stadium itself,Bradford the rubbish under the seats and obviously wooden stands whereas Hillsborough it's down to so many errors that shouldn't have happened in the first place and after could've been delt with.hands held up etc

Sad to think so many changes to football have comes to these disasters which never should've happened in the first place.

Highsteaks · 28/04/2016 13:36

I have to say I do think that what happened at Heysel a couple of years prior probably hindered the path to the truth for these families.The police and public perception of Liverpool fans made it so much easier for the police to lie as they knew the public were more likely to believe it.

I'm glad the truth has finally come out now.

Highsteaks · 28/04/2016 13:38

Oh I just x posted with laylabelle

NaughtToThreeSadOnions · 28/04/2016 13:38

Who ever said that the circumstances of the day were created by both fans and police behaviour, that was the point of the fucking inquest you idiot! The inquest has found no blame is attached to the fans at all!

Seriously seriously!

But then my best friends mum said it was their fault they kept pushing forward when the front were getting crushed!

27 years those kids should have been taking their kids to games sitting and watching the club! 96 people when to what should have been one of the most exciting days of their lives and they never came home!

Listen to the likes of dalglish, grobblaar, Rush Barnes who were there saw the fans of their club literally dying in front of them. Through no fault of their own.

Every club in the country every football fan every player has wanted this verdict!

MissHooliesCardigan · 28/04/2016 13:39

loopylou You are not being 'controversial'. You are just being wrong. And stupid. How can you believe that you know better than people who listened to evidence for TWO YEARS?

TinklyLittleLaugh · 28/04/2016 13:41

I don't know much about Heysel (though I remember seeing it on TV as a kid), but I'm sure I read somewhere that no one would have died if the wall hadn't collapsed. Again, poor facilities and lack of basic health and safety for fans seems to be a factor.

LittleMissBossyBoots · 28/04/2016 13:45

Every club in the country every football fan every player has wanted this verdict!

I've seen 'JFT96' banners at matches abroad involving clubs with no connection to Liverpool.

Highsteaks · 28/04/2016 13:51

I don't know much about Heysel (though I remember seeing it on TV as a kid), but I'm sure I read somewhere that no one would have died if the wall hadn't collapsed. Again, poor facilities and lack of basic health and safety for fans seems to be a factor.

14 Liverpool fans were convicted of manslaughter. 39 people never came home from that match as a result of those fans actions. It makes it clearer to see how the police managed to lie about Hillsborough. I'm sure many people were like 'well yeah, it was Liverpool fans innit'.

Although I do agree about shitty health and safety in the 80s.

laylabelle · 28/04/2016 13:52

It's like at Bradford think it was a player who thought the behaviour of the crowd was just fans causing trouble at first before obviously it became clear something was wrong.whereas here again seems thought was fans causing trouble,realised not but then carrying on with the whole story that it was fans to blame and mainly at fault.

HopefulHamster · 28/04/2016 14:13

Loopylou, you are despicable to post that in that thread. Despicable and ignorant.

JFT96. YNWA.

thebestfurchinchilla · 28/04/2016 14:16

loopy you really are living up to your name. How dare you?

whois · 28/04/2016 14:20

Loopy, you are not being "controversial", you are being stupid

Couldn't agree more. Can't believe Loopy thinks she knows better than the jury. Total cunt to come and say the fans caused the disaster.

MintyChapstick · 28/04/2016 14:22

I've been watching the original news coverage on YouTube, and you can see the beginning of the cover up and start of the lies. Newsreaders and reporters talking about ticketless fans rushing the gate etc. Stuff that's now disproven as false, the police started the smear campaign within the first few hours . Before the victims were even cold

It's just so disgusting, lying scheming scum that they are.

whois · 28/04/2016 14:23

Although I do agree about shitty health and safety in the 80s

We like to complain about 'elf and safety gone mad' but I'm glad there is better knowledge and procedures in place now.

events that attract large crowds can be very scary places, and inexperienced marshalling can make things go from bad to worse.

I was once caught in a small scale crush at a music festival once, a very very scary experience.