Housework - who ibu?

[nobilityobliges]

I am 25 and getting married to my boyfriend of five years this summer. He is fantastic, and I love him very much. Pretty much the only problem in our relationship arises out of arguments about housework.

I am a really messy person. On top of this, I am currently working as a trainee solicitor in a big London firm, which means that I often don't get in til 9 or 10pm, sometimes have to work weekends. So I have a limited amount of free time, which I don't want to spend doing housework.

My fiancé, on the other hand, is pretty houseproud, and mess stresses him out. I try to accommodate him, and am a lot tidier than I would otherwise be. I also pay for a cleaner to come weekly. He still does more housework though. However, he has a lot more free time than me - he has been at home finishing his phd for a while, and now he has finished it, he is brushing up his coding skills (a different area from his phd) before beginning a job in that area in a few months time (he already has the job). I think this is a good career move and support him in it. I supported him financially through the last year of his phd, and am still supporting him now (ie I pay rent/council tax/food bills/going out etc). I'm happy to do this, and he is really working hard getting his skills up to speed and is definitely not just lazing around the house while I'm at work.

But my fiancé still just brings up my messiness a lot. For example, there will often be a buildup of my breakfast/dinner stuff in the sink (my bf washes up as he goes). I also often just leave stuff lying round -- eg my make up on the sofa after I apply it in the morning then rush out without putting it away, coffee cups round the living room, clothes in a pile on the chair in our room rather than put away etc etc. Nothing major, but definitely quite a bit of general mess. My fiancé thinks that this stuff is completely unreasonable and that I'm completely selfish for not being tidier.

My view is that (1) it's my flat too, and he has to accept that we'll be meeting in the middle mess-wise, (2) I am working very hard at a job, and it's unreasonable to expect me to also spend ages on housework, when this is something I fundamentally don't give a shit about and (3) I am contributing a lot by paying the rent and bills, so even if he ends up doing more housework than me, it's still a fair split.

The problem is that when I raise the fact that I am paying bills he gets very upset, and tells me that I'm trying to control him financially, and that if it was a man telling a woman this I'd be up in arms etc. I just don't know what's right. I do make an effort, but I'm not going to transform into a really tidy person, and I feel he should cut me some slack. I also acknowledge that he is putting every effort into increasing his future earning potential, but also feel that my current financial contribution shouldn't count for nothing either.

We seem to spend so much of our time arguing about this, and it's bringing me down. Any views or advice would be appreciated! Sorry this is so long....

Leaving stuff on the sofa would drive me bananas ans cups left out is just 'can't be arsed.' I'd like to hear his side of the story

He's complaining about me being messy and leaving stuff out, not washing up often enough etc. Which I do get, because it's true. but my view is that it's an inevitability of living with a messy person who has about 2-3 waking hours at home every weekday.

And you need to agree that he has more time at home, so obviously he will be a bit more responsible for general house chores ... - this is something that is not agreed (and not going to be agreed) as he is deeply offended by the suggestion. It's also not something I want to push, as I think we're both basically fine with the division of chores.

I do agree that it's not good to bring money into it. But time obviously relates to money. He wouldn't have been able to not have any income for two years if someone wasn't earning money. His point is that he is preparing to earn money in future - which is true at the moment. But it wasn't true when he spent an extra year after his funding ended on his phd in an arts subject. I was happy to support him on that - but it was a project that was purely for his personal fulfilment (as he could have handed in on time, and had decided by that point that he was not aiming for an academic career). So I guess I feel like my work-labour time should be acknowledged as something that is facilitating him doing what he wants. But I do agree that he shouldn't have to feel like he owes me. I don't know, I guess I feel when he complains about what I don't do, that the contribution I DO make is unacknowledged. But I do take the point that bringing the fact of earnings into it is entitled-dick territory, and I promise I don't bring this up often (though I do inwardly seethe).

Would you like to be reminded that because you were a kept woman you should do less? - it's a tough one, because there are no circumstances in which I would be willing to financially rely on my DP if I wasn't caring for children (or disability/other unforeseen circumstance).

I can't believe the hard time you are getting.

I don't think you are being particularly U.

Leaving make up, in a make up bag, in the sitting room after live got ready in there in the morning is not an issue. It's more considerate than getting ready in the bedroom and waking up DP.

Being a tidy person doesn't make you a better person... But it is quite hard to love with someone who is messier or tidier.

I think you and DP need to have a frank talk and meet somewhere in the middle. So maybe all your clothes go onto a chair in the bedroom to pile up until you can put them away. Maybe you have a nice little wicker basket in the sitting room where all your misc getting ready stuff gets put before you go out.

Maybe DP stops being an arsehole and does your breakfast washing up for your without complaint.

Personally I wouldn't live anywhere without a dishwasher due to issues like this!

If you're paying for a cleaner I don't understand how much more housework there is to do since you're out of the house all the time.

DP could always land workout of the house like in a library during the day if your mess in your flat that you pay for bothers him.

Yes I do agree that a small dishwasher would be better. Problem is our kitchen is tiny (i know this makes leaving washing up worse!) and my bf reckons there's no water outlet. Plus we never have any money left at the end of the month. But maybe I will look at this issue again - I agree it does sound like a good solution. Wicker basket etc is a good call. Maybe I will just see if the cleaner can come in on a Wednesday to wash up.

Thing is it doesn't sound like house work as such, it is tidying up after your self. It sounds as if you don't spend a lot of time in the house so can over look the mess, however he spends much of his time in the house so has to put up with the clutter more so it is understandable that it causes him more stress.
I would suggest you get a dishwasher and put dishes there rather than leaving dirty ones lying around. Then try to compromise on some mess in the bedroom but the living area is kept clear as possible.

I'm afraid what comes through loud and clear is your lack of respect for your partner - you clearly think as he's not on your salary he should do the rubbish stuff. I suggest you find yourself another equally high flying partner and you can both live in elevated, high-paying squalor, while your partner is free to find someone who doesn't treat him as a domestic appliance.

Oh and get a dishwasher.

Nobility in all honesty, I'm kinda with you on this. I genuinely don't see how a coffee cup on the table and a make up bag on the sofa could wind someone up that much.

I think it was unreasonable to bring money into it, as that's not the issue, but yeah, if I've just worked my third 15hr day in a week, I could not give a toss where my coffee cup was left in the morning. Especially knowing full well I will pull my weight at the weekend.

Having said that, I think you need an open conversation about expectations. If your dp would be ok with a change as simple as putting dirty cups in the kitchen and make up bag out of sight then just do it.

If that's not actually going to be enough though and there's a bigger unknown that he's objecting to then you need to know what that is.

You have my sympathies though. Dh is a lot tidier than I am and it's hard work sometimes trying to force myself to see the mess he gets stressed by, because I genuinely don't a lot of the time. We just have different thresholds and it is something we've had to work on.

I don't think it's worth getting anything less than a slimline one,as it's taking up precious work top space if it's a tiny kitchen. And you still have to carry your dirty cups to it, it's not like it does it for you

I am definitely looking for him to tolerate rather than clean up! In my view, washing up left for a few days, a cup on the coffee table, last nights clothes on the chair are basically fine, and don't make a place unliveable. I think he just needs to turn a blind eye. But yes I do acknowledge that it's about respect and not just the stuff himself.

To be honest, I sort of think that if the bf is that bothered about mess, he should get a part time job that will pay enough for a cleaner to come on another occasion during the week.

These threads do make me worry whether I could ever live with somebody else again! I don't think either of you are being particularly unreasonable but you just have to find a compromise if you really do want to live together. I think that while he is home and not really earning it is fair enough that he does more, on the basis that if he were also earning £35k - £40k as a trainee solicitor you would jointly have enough for a cleaner to come more often (and maybe even a bigger flat with a dishwasher!)

And also - if he were out of the house all day he wouldn't have the same issue with the mess!

OP what you describe sounds a tip, especially if he's at home during the day. Leaving dirt dishes for a few days will attract mice if you're not careful.

Dh gets up at 5.30am every day and there's no way he'd dream of leaving clothes and dirty breakfast dishes out.

What you're describing is what you do when you're single and don't give a fuck

I'm afraid what comes through loud and clear is your lack of respect for your partner - you clearly think as he's not on your salary he should do the rubbish stuff. I suggest you find yourself another equally high flying partner and you can both live in elevated, high-paying squalor, while your partner is free to find someone who doesn't treat him as a domestic appliance.

I can't emphasise enough that
(1) I am NOT expecting him to do the rubbish stuff -- I am expecting him to acknowledge that since I work long hours he may have to accept some messiness. I do NOT expect him to clean up after me or do all the housework.
(2) it's not that he is "not on my salary". He IS high-flying - he has published widely, and has a book-version of his phd coming out, and now he is turning his hand to a completely new field and has found a great job in it. But it surely does make a difference that my salary has allowed him to not do any paid work for two years and achieve these things?

Sounds like this stuff - washing up, coffee cups out - is important to him. If you do love him the surely it's not too much of a sacrifice to change?

Am I really reading correctly that he will do "his" washing up, but leave yours?! I don't think I could marry a man who was so petty as to make washing up a personal job.

YANBU

I think that while he is home and not really earning it is fair enough that he does more, on the basis that if he were also earning £35k - £40k as a trainee solicitor you would jointly have enough for a cleaner to come more often (and maybe even a bigger flat with a dishwasher

This is a point I've made, and he finds it extremely insulting. He's extremely intelligent and has an amazing CV so it's not that he wouldn't have been able to be on a similar salary to me if he'd wanted. I DO understand why i can't bring this up and it's wrong to think this way about money, but I also can't stop myself seeing it that way a bit too. I feel torn.

There's one sentence you've written that suggests this issue is just the tip of the iceberg for you. After repeatedly pointing out that you've supported him for 2 years, you say: there are no circumstances in which I would be willing to financially rely on my DP if I wasn't caring for children (or disability/other unforeseen circumstance). How exactly do you reconcile those 2 things, and maintain respect for your fiancé?

Had to laugh at tidiness coming with 'maturity' . I am boringly mature (sensible about finances, think things through, very responsible job, 2 kids mortgage, wrong side of 40 etc..) yet messy. It's not a moral issue you know.

As dh is not messy my top tips (after 20 odd years) would be:
You're right about the compromise. I am less messy than I would be if I lived alone, dh has a less tidy house than he would ideally like. If you're planning a life together you are going to have to get good at compromising, and finding away of communicating that problem solves issues like this. If not you are going to have the same argument over and over.
Buy as many cleaning hours as you can afford- preferably not from an agency, but from someone who is flexible enough to tidy a bit too.
Get a dishwasher...(even if this means moving)
Design and organise your house/flat so that are storage solutions near to where the items are most often used.
Similarly don't have too much stuff- regular culls are good. Set reminders on your phone to attend to the mess (if like me you just don't see it).

You sound exhausted and to go against the grain I think a partnership is about taking the strain from each other when we are under pressure.

It would not hurt him to lift the odd cup as he is moving his really.

That said, can you assess this as a systems issues, you sound like you would be good at it. What system would work better for you to get out the house without leaving some mess behind you, because its a mess you come back to as well as your DP seeing.

Baskets for make up, a make up bag you can get stuff out of and put straight back into once once and shut the lid once finished. A built in final scurry around for used things before you leave. Do you arrange you bags, clothes, shoes etc the night before? Review your steps, things could be easier for you in the long term.

To reiterate though, he doesn't sound massively supportive of your high pressure job.

Cleaners clean they don't tidy up after you.

What if he was working from home and eating a fortune, he'd still have issue with your messiness. I don't really see who earns what has anything to do with it.

Unless deep down you so actually resent him for not working / earning as much as you do?

And you need to agree that he has more time at home, so obviously he will be a bit more responsible for general house chores ... - this is something that is not agreed (and not going to be agreed) as he is deeply offended by the suggestion. It's also not something I want to push, as I think we're both basically fine with the division of chores.

I'm afraid you won't have any other choice that to tackle that one NOW, before you get married. You DO have an issue with the division of the chores if he is bringing up the issue regularly and it's becoming an issue between you!

If you are carrying on working very long hours and he has a job that allows him to be back at home earlier, then it WILL be part of your day to day life. Add children on the mix and can you imagine how things will end up?

From what you say, it's not that you don't do anything at all. It has more to do with the fact he resents doing all the washing up (which he will see as him doing it all) and having some of your stuff around, just where he would like to sit down (the make up bag is an example of that).
But yes, being at home earlier will mean that he is going to do a bit more.

My first reaction though is: why on earth don't you have a dishwasher? That would solve your first problem about the washing up (I'm sure you can both put stuff in the dishwasher).
And tidying as you go along (your make up for example) is a good habit to get into. (I'm saying that as messy pperson who was much messier than you are, well until I met tidy DH...)
But I should really sit down with him and make a list of all the things that needs to be done around the house. Make two columns showing what each of you is doing and see exactly how much each of you is doing.
By default, men tend to have an overinflated sense of what they are doing HW wise and women tend to think they do much less than they actually do (or at least that's what studies tell us). So have a look and see what is actually the reality.
And then decide. Why on earth should he be offended by the idea that you review who is doing what? Does he think that by doing that you are either saying he doesn't do enough (which I doubt) or is he worried that it will show he actually doesn't do that much???

But come on OP, it doesn't take a lot of effort to rinse out a coffee mug and to put a make-up bag on the side instead of leaving it dumped on the sofa.

He's not expecting you to do hours of work, just put your stuff away when you're finished with it. It's not hard.