Housework - who ibu?

[nobilityobliges]

I am 25 and getting married to my boyfriend of five years this summer. He is fantastic, and I love him very much. Pretty much the only problem in our relationship arises out of arguments about housework.

I am a really messy person. On top of this, I am currently working as a trainee solicitor in a big London firm, which means that I often don't get in til 9 or 10pm, sometimes have to work weekends. So I have a limited amount of free time, which I don't want to spend doing housework.

My fiancé, on the other hand, is pretty houseproud, and mess stresses him out. I try to accommodate him, and am a lot tidier than I would otherwise be. I also pay for a cleaner to come weekly. He still does more housework though. However, he has a lot more free time than me - he has been at home finishing his phd for a while, and now he has finished it, he is brushing up his coding skills (a different area from his phd) before beginning a job in that area in a few months time (he already has the job). I think this is a good career move and support him in it. I supported him financially through the last year of his phd, and am still supporting him now (ie I pay rent/council tax/food bills/going out etc). I'm happy to do this, and he is really working hard getting his skills up to speed and is definitely not just lazing around the house while I'm at work.

But my fiancé still just brings up my messiness a lot. For example, there will often be a buildup of my breakfast/dinner stuff in the sink (my bf washes up as he goes). I also often just leave stuff lying round -- eg my make up on the sofa after I apply it in the morning then rush out without putting it away, coffee cups round the living room, clothes in a pile on the chair in our room rather than put away etc etc. Nothing major, but definitely quite a bit of general mess. My fiancé thinks that this stuff is completely unreasonable and that I'm completely selfish for not being tidier.

My view is that (1) it's my flat too, and he has to accept that we'll be meeting in the middle mess-wise, (2) I am working very hard at a job, and it's unreasonable to expect me to also spend ages on housework, when this is something I fundamentally don't give a shit about and (3) I am contributing a lot by paying the rent and bills, so even if he ends up doing more housework than me, it's still a fair split.

The problem is that when I raise the fact that I am paying bills he gets very upset, and tells me that I'm trying to control him financially, and that if it was a man telling a woman this I'd be up in arms etc. I just don't know what's right. I do make an effort, but I'm not going to transform into a really tidy person, and I feel he should cut me some slack. I also acknowledge that he is putting every effort into increasing his future earning potential, but also feel that my current financial contribution shouldn't count for nothing either.

We seem to spend so much of our time arguing about this, and it's bringing me down. Any views or advice would be appreciated! Sorry this is so long....

And OP, if you have maternity leave while you're with this arse, he will expect you to do everything - he'll cleverly forget his arguments about your coffee cup - you'll be expected to do the lot while he's slogging away 9-5.

Or another option might have been for him to get an evening job or a job in a call centre, like so many PhD students do. But no, he's happy in his free flat, eating his free food, using his free heating and going out for free drinks. He's happy when the cleaner cleans the flat, too. What he's not happy about is when he sees a rogue make up bag and wants to know why his knackered girlfriend hasn't put it away.

As I said, I don't anyone who did and evening job or a job in a call centre when completing their PhD as you would have to do so many hours to support yourself that ultimately it would have very much delayed completion of the PhD and the potential for a future professional job. Most people just signed on. They certainly wouldn't live with someone if that meant they had to do a low paid job.

What do you mean, Marynary, they certainly wouldn't live with someone if that meant they had to do a low paid job? Do you think all PhD students are either single or completely supported? PhDs are often done part-time; I know several people who have done them while working half or full time.

It just seems that this man is taking everything and giving nothing back. If the OP didn't have to pay for absolutely everything, she could pay for a cleaner to come in every day, if she liked.

Pretty much the only problem in our relationship arises out of arguments about housework.

I wouldn't recommend getting married to someone you argue with about how to run a house.

my make up on the sofa

Quick fix: Keep a make-up box down the side of the sofa, somewhere which is hard to see. Then putting it away isn't that hard, just throw it down the side.

coffee cups round the living room

That's unreasonable. Sorry. Don't care how long your working, it's not housework to put it in the kitchen.
Quick fix: Make a cup tray that's not too far out of your way and can put all your mugs in before you leave. It doesn't take much to pick them up and put them down on the way out. Take it into the kitchen when you get back or have it as close to the kitchen as possible.

clothes in a pile on the chair in our room rather than put away

If he's folding them, it's not hard to put away. Split into piles by draw and them shove them in. If you have separate draws, just put them in in the piles instead.
Quick fix: Put them in the bottom of your wardrobe or just in your draw. Have separate draws.

(1) it's my flat too, and he has to accept that we'll be meeting in the middle mess-wise

That rarely works.

(2) I am working very hard at a job, and it's unreasonable to expect me to also spend ages on housework, when this is something I fundamentally don't give a shit about

Don't marry him. I'm not sure why either of you think this is a good idea. You frustrate each other with the most mundane shit and you apparently don't give a shit? Don't get married. He's not even asking for hours, he's asking you to clean up mugs and make-up that can be done in seconds.

(3) I am contributing a lot by paying the rent and bills, so even if he ends up doing more housework than me, it's still a fair split.

This is true but he probably spends a lot of the time you're at work cleaning up. You act like his PhD wasn't a shit tonne of work. He didn't have more time than you on his PhD, he had no time. Now he's honing his skills for a job? So... making a portfolio? In coding? Have you ever tried coding...?

The problem is that when I raise the fact that I am paying bills he gets very upset, and tells me that I'm trying to control him financially,

Ok, this can't be said one way or another without actually seeing the conversation. There is always a bias when one party is talking and the other isn't. My advice: LEAVE HIM. ONE OF YOU IS ABUSIVE. LEAVE HIM.

So, TLDR; LEAVE HIM BECAUSE YOU'RE BAD FOR EACH OTHER AND YOU SHOULDN'T BE GETTING MARRIED.

Woah! Thanks for all the replies - which I haven't yet had the chance to go through properly. Some brief thoughts/updates:

• I was posting yesterday after a big argument about this with my fiancé. So I think I have probably painted a bit of a dark picture of the situation and our relationship, which is unfair on him.

• For the record - he does do a lot at home and picks up the slack for me when I'm working hard -- in terms of cooking, fixing stuff, making the house nice, liasing with landlord/cleaner/tradespeople etc, taking my suits to the dry cleaners... lots of little things like this. And also he is an enormous source of emotional support to me (as I obviously try to be for him). Our relationship isn't all arguments about tidying.

• the tidying stuff - it's fair to say that it's not only a single cup in isolation that will upset him it will be the cup having been left for a few days, or even if i move it, another cup taking its place the next day and the next... I also should own up to a buildup of cups/cereal bowls/dinner plates in the kitchen definitely enough of a build-up to push me into the slovenly zone in the eyes of many, and a buildup that is pretty annoying considering that we have a tiny kitchen and the kitchen is in a corner of our living room (so is not hidden away).

• however, the buildup does only happen when I'm working crazily hard, and will literally be of stuff I've shoved into my mouth as i'm heading out for work or after I've come back exhausted, which is why I feel so aggrieved about being taken for task for it;

• also the make-up bag does sound more innocent than it is -- it's kind of a grubby tote bag rather than a chic little purse-type affair, so it does look a bit of a mess. but on the other hand, yes, I do creep into the living room to do it so as not to wake him up....

• however, on the other hand, the fact that there is this build-up is testament to the fact that he stubbornly refuses to do "my" washing up on principle (so people worried that I'm treating him as a servant or a 1950s housewife can breath a sigh of relief - he is definitely not allowing this to happen and is more than able to stick up for himself!)

• the people saying I am being taken for a mug - I get where you're coming from, but I really don't think I am. I was harping on about the money thing, but I don't think that our relationship is defined by it, and I don't think he's a freeloader/cocklodger. I was very encouraging of him taking the time to finish up his PhD properly and I also very much supported the programming move, as I think he'll be a lot happier and more fulfilled in this area than a lot of other ones he could have got work in without retraining. Also, he has had a slightly emotionally bruising time at the end of his PhD (like a lot of talented doctoral students who put everything into their work/the job search and end up being unsuccessful). So it's not that he's been rolling around at home happy as a clam (except when stray mugs cross his path);

• the dividing up washing-up thing into his and mine IS annoying, but I think he doesn't not do it because he is unwilling to make sacrifices in the relationship (he does a lot for me and is very generous) - but because he thinks that if he ends up doing it i'll just get worse and not realise that I should try to mend my slovenly ways. I find this attitude pretty annoying - but it's not the same as him not seeing himself as a partner iyswim.

• I am not as resentful towards him as I come across in my posts. we normally have a wonderful time together, I love him a lot, and he is kind and generous - and I do not obsess about household contributions /finances etc.

I think this is an issue we both need to tackle and getting lots of viewpoints (including seeing how many people think that I am totally U) has been//will be helpful for plotting a way forward. So thanks all!

I wouldn't have been that petty as a student to begrudge washing a single mug my flatmate had left out when I was washing up after cooking my dinner. When he cooks he leaves a mug dirty to make some kind of point to his fiancé?! I wouldn't rinse a cup and bowl from breakfast as it seems a waste of water when I'd be filling the sink and doing a proper load later in the day. I'd rather do them properly later on and don't understand when people just run a mug under the tap.

OP, I've worked long hours like you and sometimes was only in the flat long enough to grab a few hours sleep and then up and out again. We had a tiny flat where if a single thing was out of place it would feel cluttered and I wouldn't feel relaxed so would crack on with cleaning when I was about but I can completely sympathise that you might leave a cup in the bathroom or whatever, as that level of tiredness makes you more absent minded.

I'm on maternity leave with a 4 month old so I do understand that it's annoying to look at mess all day but her partner doesn't have to. If he got up with her and made breakfast for them both then as he doesn't have a commute or children to look after then it would make sense for him to wash up if he doesn't want the breakfast things to wait. The only reason this isn't happening is because he's having a nice lie in. I wouldn't want to worry about accidentally sitting on and spilling makeup over the sofa either, but it's in a bag on a shelf? What's wrong with that? How is a makeup bag that offensive or have you embroidered CUNT on it? It's only there so he can have a lie in until 9am.

A nice basket or box to pop stuff in so its not clutter would make it easier but I reckon he shouldn't begrudge being the one who pops clutter in there for OP to tidy later. And get up earlier to make the coffee for them both!

At 25 I didn't give a shit about housework either...

Hang on... are you saying that he only washes his own dishes? That he leaves your dirty dishes for you to do even though he knows you won't be home for another 12 hours and that you'll be exhausted?

And he does this when a) he says he loves you and b) you are paying for absolutely everything for him? Unbelievable.

I'm sorry, I don't care how charming he can be, he is an absolute bloody selfish bastard to do that to you.

I think you are being too harsh on the op. she is not lazy, otherwise she wouldn't be working such long hours. the partner with more free time should clean up. but all these should be sorted before having children. by the way, you should probably wait for both marriage and children, 25 years old is way too young.

X post with you OP.

Get a nice makeup bag/basket to keep it in.

The only reason a cup is left for days or bowls are accumulating is because he's acting like a petty student and making a point with them. He could just take the extra couple of seconds to do it when he washes up dinner stuff. Because that's a nice thing to do when your partner's tired from working hard.

What do you mean, Marynary, they certainly wouldn't live with someone if that meant they had to do a low paid job? Do you think all PhD students are either single or completely supported? PhDs are often done part-time; I know several people who have done them while working half or full time.

PhD students who are registered full time (as OP's DP was) usually receive a stipend. The amount varies but if a grant it could be around £14,000 tax free per year so they have enough to live on without working. It is a full time job really so not much time to do anything else anyway especially as it has to be completed within a limited period of time. If you don't finish on time you don't get the PhD. They certainly aren't all working in part time jobs in addition to the PhD.
If you know people who are doing a PhD while working part time or full time they must be registered as part time students. It's not the same as doing a PhD full time. They will have a much longer time to complete than a full time student- five or six years rather than three.

But he's already finished his PhD. He's now brushing up his coding skills. Yes the people I know with PhDs studied them part-time, but even a student on a full time course has enough time to work a bit in the evenings. I took an MA and virtually everyone in the class was working full time. It's what people do, isn't it? If they can't afford to live on the money they have. This guy is living off his girlfriend's money - she's exhausted and he's washing his own dishes and leaving hers. He's horrible!

So, the bit I don't get is - why is it ok for him to leave some of his laundry for you to do but not ok for you to leave some of your washing-up for him to do?

And why hasn't he got a part-time job of some sort now? If money is tight and all he is doing is learning how to code when presumably his employer offered him the job knowing that he didn't have much experience, I don't really understand why he can't pick up a bit of work. Even if he just did a bit of temping, it would really help financially as well as getting him out of the house a bit which sounds like it would help generally.

So then he fully understands that if/when you're on maternity leave, you will only be responsible for cleaning up after you and the baby. You will leave all his stuff for him to do, when he gets in from work?

The fact that you even have to have such conversation indicates just how petty this is.

Your last post hasn't made him sound in the slightest bit better.

YABU. I'm very lazy when it comes to washing up. But I would never leave my dirty coffee cups around the house, I at least put them next to the sink! And leaving make up on the sofa is just acting like a lazy teenager. Your partner is working from home, it's not fair that you leave it in a complete mess. My husband works from home, I'd never expect him to tidy up after me. It sounds like it would take you very little effort to be a little bit more tidy and that would make your partner a lot more happy. So why not try?

They certainly aren't all working in part time jobs in addition to the PhD.

That's true while they have the stipend but every PhD student I knew took on some part-time work when the stipend ran out but they hadn't finished writing up. Having done it myself, yes, it's stressful but it isn't so stressful you can't do a few hours work here and there to see you through financially.

Well you need to cut your coat to suit your cloth - if you've no income then you need to work, even if it takes you longer to complete.
Signing on must lead to interesting conversations at the dole office, as you have to be actively seeking work to claim.

I think that was the old days, yellowwiggle. You wouldn't get away with it now.

Joinourclub, have you actually read the OP's posts?

Ah the old days, when students could sign on in the summer holidays and a pint of snakebite was 50p.

Yes the people I know with PhDs studied them part-time, but even a student on a full time course has enough time to work a bit in the evenings. I took an MA and virtually everyone in the class was working full time. It's what people do, isn't it? If they can't afford to live on the money they have.

A full time research PhD is very different to being an undergraduate or doing an MA. It is not a course but more of a full time apprenticeship. If you do it full time it is no different to doing a full time job and that is why you are paid a stipend which is enough to live on. When I did a PhD I had to be in the lab from 9 a.m to 7 p.m. each day so not much time for an evening job. Everyone I know (except me) claimed income support when their funding ran out after as they didn't have long to finish so if they had worked full or part time on another job they risked not getting the PhD at all. If they had a partner they either moved out or claimed their partner was just a friend. I presume that OP and her DP decided not to do that but that would have been a joint decision and I don't think it is fair to assume her DP is a "cocklodger".

I'm with imperialblether.

Dh and I have been married a long time but I don't think would mind whose washing up it was if one of us was out late or there was a reason one of us was more stretched. Any relationship is bound to have its niggles but love and generosity to each other are I think essential especially imo in the earlier years while you get the hang of living together.

I realise it doesn't reflect on the whole of your relationship and that you defend and love him OP but he doesn't sound particularly supportive/ appreciative or thoughtful- I skipped a few pages but is he?

We don't know how much he needs to learn before starting his new job. Just because he has "popped out for lunch" once doesn't mean he has loads of free time. OP herself hasn't said he has loads of free time. She said he works very hard

If he's getting up at 9am I think we can safely say that he has more spare time than OP on a magic circle training contract!

I've hardened my position here - you're only 25 FGS. We all used to leave mountains of washing up at that age! He sounds like a dick.

Mary it's kind of beside the point I think, but an arts PhD is very different. There is generally no one dictating your hours. It is entirely down to your own self-motivation. I knew no one who signed on in order to complete their PhD because you are still a full-time student and therefore ineligible. Plenty of people worked all sorts of odd hours to fit round part-time jobs once funding ran out. I worked all day til around 5 or 6 then grabbed food before going to my evening job from which I returned around 10 when I would quite often continue working. I also did teaching during the day. It's an incredible luxury to have your partner fund you for two further years.