Housework - who ibu?

[nobilityobliges]

I am 25 and getting married to my boyfriend of five years this summer. He is fantastic, and I love him very much. Pretty much the only problem in our relationship arises out of arguments about housework.

I am a really messy person. On top of this, I am currently working as a trainee solicitor in a big London firm, which means that I often don't get in til 9 or 10pm, sometimes have to work weekends. So I have a limited amount of free time, which I don't want to spend doing housework.

My fiancé, on the other hand, is pretty houseproud, and mess stresses him out. I try to accommodate him, and am a lot tidier than I would otherwise be. I also pay for a cleaner to come weekly. He still does more housework though. However, he has a lot more free time than me - he has been at home finishing his phd for a while, and now he has finished it, he is brushing up his coding skills (a different area from his phd) before beginning a job in that area in a few months time (he already has the job). I think this is a good career move and support him in it. I supported him financially through the last year of his phd, and am still supporting him now (ie I pay rent/council tax/food bills/going out etc). I'm happy to do this, and he is really working hard getting his skills up to speed and is definitely not just lazing around the house while I'm at work.

But my fiancé still just brings up my messiness a lot. For example, there will often be a buildup of my breakfast/dinner stuff in the sink (my bf washes up as he goes). I also often just leave stuff lying round -- eg my make up on the sofa after I apply it in the morning then rush out without putting it away, coffee cups round the living room, clothes in a pile on the chair in our room rather than put away etc etc. Nothing major, but definitely quite a bit of general mess. My fiancé thinks that this stuff is completely unreasonable and that I'm completely selfish for not being tidier.

My view is that (1) it's my flat too, and he has to accept that we'll be meeting in the middle mess-wise, (2) I am working very hard at a job, and it's unreasonable to expect me to also spend ages on housework, when this is something I fundamentally don't give a shit about and (3) I am contributing a lot by paying the rent and bills, so even if he ends up doing more housework than me, it's still a fair split.

The problem is that when I raise the fact that I am paying bills he gets very upset, and tells me that I'm trying to control him financially, and that if it was a man telling a woman this I'd be up in arms etc. I just don't know what's right. I do make an effort, but I'm not going to transform into a really tidy person, and I feel he should cut me some slack. I also acknowledge that he is putting every effort into increasing his future earning potential, but also feel that my current financial contribution shouldn't count for nothing either.

We seem to spend so much of our time arguing about this, and it's bringing me down. Any views or advice would be appreciated! Sorry this is so long....

I haven't changed my mind. Whilst I agree that he should be doing more housework if he has more time, I still don't think that means OP should leave cups, clothes and other mess lying around. We can't tell from OP's posts how bad she is as inevitably she will give the impression that it isn't that bad. We also don't really know how busy he is or how essential it is for her OP to brush up on his coding skills before his job starts.

And I strongly disagree with those who seem to think that the DP should do more housework because she contributes more financially.

her OP her DP

Finally, I also think that if he's the one at home more, he should be taking on the bulk of the household chores.

As someone who works at home, I strongly disagree with that statement! Being at home doesn't mean I have more time to do housework! If anything I work harder because I don't want anyone to think I am skiving.

Marynary - if you are working from home in an employed position, I think you're quite right. But OP's OH is not. He's teaching himself coding. He's answerable to no-one but himself.

That's you Mary, and you presumably have a job or some other kind of work where people will notice how slack/otherwise you've been. He's teaching himself a skill, and clearly does have time to go out for lunch etc so hardly rushed off his feet.

xpost Welsh :)

Sorry op, I'm all for female progression and career advancement, but your posts have made my blood boil. Why the hell should he pick up your mug?! Why should he navigate your dirty dishes in the sink? If this attitude becomes ingrained and lasts into having kids, it breaks marriages down. I speak fr bitter, years of experience. What you are essentially saying I think is- I am making money and I have less time. Ergo,he should clean up my mess. There are long threads on here about how this kind of attitude is a huge red flag for a future disastrous marriages, usually for the woman. I think you absolutely are picking up your colleagues attitude to housework. It's a wider social problem and just because you are a woman doesn't mean it's OK.

I have been on the receiving end of someone when well paid and financially supporting me, expected me to do all the cleaning as I 'had more time'. By the time we had kids, he earnt less than me and still expected me tidy up after him. It was soul destroying, a drain on family resources and I left him.

My advice is - read the Marie kondo book about clutter as it makes being tidier easier - increase the hours you have your cleaner- resolve to clear up after yourself as you go using the two hands rule (IE every time you leave a room, take things with you to put away) - and remember, every time you leave your make up out, your mug out etc you are saying, Fuck you dp. I don't care how my mess impacts on your living space. That is the message you are relaying and it will hurt him and damage your relationship and your intimacy.

Well done for posting here, and I hope you

if you are working from home in an employed position, I think you're quite right. But OP's OH is not. He's teaching himself coding. He's answerable to no-one but himself.

You didn't say that though. You just stated that "if he is the one at home he should be taking on the bulk of household chores". I think it should depend on who truely has the most time (whether paid or unpaid). Who is at home the most or who earns the most shouldn't come into it. I agree that he probably does have the most time but it is impossible to know for sure.

Work it out.

Finally, buy a dishwasher, a tumble dryer and even a robotic Hoover if it helps to keep your joint space in a way you can both enjoy it.

Lasts words... get into the habit now of scanning a room every time you leave it to see what is yours and what needs to go away following the two hand rule.

I don't think we disagree, Marynary. My sentence was probably a bit too sweeping, but was written in the context of the OP's situation, and my own in the past (neither of us has ever worked in an employed position from home). I did say in the same paragraph "if you have someone at home who's able to help you out" - which clearly would not apply if the person was meant to be spending that additional time at home working for someone else.

"I agree that he probably does have the most time but it is impossible to know for sure."

Oh come off it! She's out of the house from 7 til around 10 all week, he's in teaching himself a skill all week, popping out for lunches etc. There's a chance he has more time? OK then :o

I'm flabbergasted by people on this thread who seem to think that people in relationships don't/shouldn't do anything for each other. If someone in most couples started washing up only their own stuff, the other person would think they were completely mad.

OMG Lady Lori she pays for a cleaner, she doesn't need a robot vacum? She needs to be comfortable in her home too, how is she saying fuckyou dp by leaving a makeup bag out in her shared flat, a makeup bag is hardly that offensive,if it was makeup strewn about next to the empty bag maybe

If you admittedly let your mess build up and he is the one who cleans up then YABU. Especially if he is a little OCD, you don't realise how stressful that can actually be. You financially supporting him has nothing to do with the housework and I wouldn't bring that up. That was your choice. If you some how feel he owes you because of this then I think you are kidding yourself about only having one issue in the relationship. If you make a mess, clean it up, simple as that.

Whether you are right or you are wrong, my own experience is that you will still be arguing about this in twenty years time regardless of who has the time and who earns what.
Tidiness does not come naturally to me, it is still a source of conflict between a dh and I and probably always will be (which I find rather depressing)

Oh come off it! She's out of the house from 7 til around 10 all week, he's in teaching himself a skill all week, popping out for lunches etc. There's a chance he has more time? OK then

We don't know how much he needs to learn before starting his new job. Just because he has "popped out for lunch" once doesn't mean he has loads of free time. OP herself hasn't said he has loads of free time. She said he works very hard.

personally i don't think YABU
the fact he is at home all day, working, will mean the mess annoys him. he probably can't start til he's tidied up.

but if he doesn't get up til 9am then he could get up 1/2 an hour earlier and bloody tidy up a bit!

pick up your make up bag and put coffee cups in the sink. apart from that, do a blitz at the weekend or when you have time.

i wouldn't be getting married right now... neither of you sound ready.
fast forward to having kids - if you think you are short of time / sleep deprived now you have a big wake up call coming!

I can see both sides.

I am the one at home in this house, I am disabled and cannot work. But here's how the division of labour is split here. (dp leaves house at 6.45am and gets home about 3.15pm)

I do the washing up in the morning of all the breakfast things from him and the two dc. However, they all stack their stuff on the drainer.

I do all the washing. However, I won't go and lift it out of rooms or off floors. If it's in the wash basket I wash it, if it's not then I don't.

I do all the food shopping and cooking. However if someone wants something different to what I've cooked then crack on, I won't cook two separate dinners unless I know in advance that what I've made is something that one person hates.

I do light cleaning such as hoovering (we bought a lightweight hoover specifically for me as the old dyson weighed a ton) and some dusting. Anything requiring furniture moving or lots of bending etc needs to wait until the weekend and then dp and I do things together as physically I need to be careful.

I do all the social organising. If anyone books anything or is going anywhere it needs to go on the calender. That is our main point of organisation. Don't blame me if you are double booked because you forgot to write something on.

And that's pretty much how we manage. I do more as I'm at home. But he acknowledges (and the dc too) that I am not a skivvy and if they want things washed or cleaned then they need to be in the right place.

Anything random found lying about gets put on the bottom step to be taken up.

Was trying to point out all the time saving equipment there is that can help... essentially I believe in a CO habiting situation, each person should tidy their own things away daily so that the other people can enjoy the space. I think that is simple. No matter what work choices have been made by either partner. And if one person has a problem with the others mess, and the messy person continues to make the space difficult for the other person when knowing the impact it has, yes it is an enormous Fuck you of entitlement, especially if there is a back story of making more money, at that time. I don't think such a situation can function happily long term unless changes are made sharpish.

Just as an aside, feels like there's a mutual lack of appreciation of each other's career direction too.

Just as an aside, feels like there's a mutual lack of appreciation of each other's career direction too.

But ladyLoreli the op has tried to find a middle ground by paying for a cleaner, she has supported him with his work choices, she is not being a total mess just not 100% perfect wrt tidying, if OP has to totally change how she is to fit in with her dp's standard of tidiness where is the compromise on his side - if after all the concessions she has made he nags her to the point that it is 'bringing [her] down' isnt that a massive fuck you to her?

After the recent direction of this thread I've gone back re-read the OP post, and I'm still on the side of the DP. If you look through the list of things she says she isn't doing, none of them take any time. If she did them all, it would take less than five minutes a day.

Move make-up bag to correct location. Maybe 10 seconds.

Carry cup to sink, polish inside under a running tap with a scourer, leave on drainer. 30 seconds.

Move clothes from chair to cupboard. 10 seconds.

Wipe plate and knife and fork you've eaten with under a running tap with a scourer, maybe 30 seconds.

Being tidier would not consume more than negligible amount of time. She is untidy because she is disorganised and/or doesn't care about mess. The time and money arguments are just excuses for not wanting to change.

If it takes so little time, does that mean is he being petty for not doing it all for her, just as some have said he is for not washing her plates? No. If someone makes you clean up after them when it would cost them virtually nothing to clean up after themselves, they are treating you with contempt. His "pettiness" is a response to a much more serious "crime."

When it comes to tasks that take more than a negligible amount of time, I think there is a case to be made that he should do housework (including for example her laundry and ironing) in return for being supported. Tasks that unavoidably need to be done that she does not have time for could be passed on. They need to be big enough that it's clear the reason for passing them on is not because he currently has the servant role in the relationship.

Your problem is that you're not in a real partnership and I think you need to think carefully about that before you get married.

Your future husband sounds a bit entitled and entitled people don't make good spouses.